City of Brigantine Council Meeting January 15 2014 (1)

to the flag of the United States of
America and to the rep for stands one na
God indivisible liy and justice for all
please remain standing while our Deputy
Mayor leads us in
prayer Lord the fog will clear and we
will again see more clearly but it is
already clear to those who chose to live
work and play here that we have
something very special in
Brigantine like all communities ours has
a distinct personality and
character we pray that our personality
remains welcoming and
open-minded we pray that our character
remains grounded in the principles laid
down by our country's founding fathers
please bless and protect all of those
who protect
us I would ask for everyone to remain
standing for a moment of Silence in
memory of Joseph P kleene Joe kleene was
a 30-year resident of
Brigantine he was truly a member of the
greatest Generation having served in
World War II uh in the South
Pacific uh he was also
uh star athlete being the starting
fullback on the
1938 North Catholic championship team in
in
Philadelphia uh the mayor has some
people
to memorialize as well thank you Frank
and recently we've lost uh two um two
matriarchs of two families in bring team
um Mrs nand Daly um from the daily
family former councilman Dan Daly and
firefighter Tim Ba's grandmother um as
well as Mrs bu both time residents Mrs
bu uh mother of Gordy bu one of our
retired firefighters and um the entire
bu family so we send out our our
condolences to both of those families
and recognize the contributions that
they along with their families have made
C bring to
you amen thank you
to advise that meeting notices covering
this meeting have been sent and and
posted as required under the open public
meetings
act uh we prior to this meeting had a an
executive session um that began at 5:00
uh we did open the meeting and
um we were uh able to uh conduct some
business and executive session prior to
this part of the meeting so as we always
do with all of our executive sessions
I'd ask our solicitor to comment on the
topics that were discussed in executive
session uh in executive session the city
council discussed certain uh
professional service contracts as well
as other Personnel matters including
appointments to the planning board uh
that information will be made available
to the public later this evening when
appropriate resolutions uh in regard to
those matters are presented to council
additionally Council received a report
in regard to labor negotiations from the
manager additional information will be
made available to the public uh when
those negotiations are completed and a
contract is formally approved by
Council thank you
Fred okay next order of business is the
approval of the council meeting minutes
of 11613 and 11213 we have a motion and
second please so moved second any
additions or deletions for the
minutes okay seeing none could we have
roll call please Simpson yes the yes
Mardi yes luri yes Pila yes Hearn yes on
November 6th and abstain on November
25th they G sir yes motion
Carri next we have the approval of the
requisition list operating expenses and
payroll have a motion second please so
move
second okay any
discussion seeing none can we have roll
call please Simpson yes M clay yes bardi
yes duri yes Pila yes Kar yes mayor
Gunther yes motion
Carri okay um
next we will have public comment on
agenda items
only um this is the first of two public
comment
sessions uh members of the public are
allowed to comment on um any item that
is on the agenda when you um make your
comments please use the microphone and
state your name and address for the
record and please bear in mind uh that
we have a five minute time frame um for
comments so that uh especially uh with a
full Council um Chambers this evening uh
we anticipate that there will be many
people who want to be heard so uh we
will remind you when five minutes are up
but we ask you to sum up your remarks
and uh please comply um with that
framework okay I'll open it up for
public comment at this time
anyone would like to speak on any agenda
items Mr
poochie John pooie 100 Sharon Square
good evening mayor and city
council I don't know if it would be more
appropriate that that if the uh public
comment came before you approved the
bills it's kind of after it in case the
public had some questions or input on
the bills it just might work that way
rather than approving the bills and then
maybe have to change things later on so
maybe public comment should come first
dly
noty tonight you're approving U the the
city professional
contracts um I
asked that they be placed on a website
it's public record start a new category
uh Miss bloth La is that possible uh yes
there's no problem and also the
management
contracts the management
contracts city manager public safety
director be placed on the website there
are no contracts for myself or for the
director of Public
Safety there's no contracts for the city
manager uh city manager does not have a
contract
the item uh 13 and 14 on the
agenda for uh the prosecutor is this the
new agenda or the old
agenda the agenda for tonight well that
changed it did it five maybe it's the
old agenda uh we're going to hire the
prosecutor
slash alternate city
solicitor on the agenda was just the the
prosecutor but on the the um the
resolution it was the prosecutor and the
alternate city solicitor so is it my
understanding that the prosecutor will
have dual roles and if the city
solicitor cannot do something that would
be the person to replace the city sisser
because the the resolution says
prosecutor
slash alternate City solicor that's my
question right there um that has been a
longstanding practice that if in fact
there's an issue that um I would imagine
Mr cery had a conflict or in some other
way who would have to refer something
for whatever reason we have another
attorney who is designated to do that
type of work understood but on the
agenda it was just the prosecutor but
the resolution States both
that's the uh
Council meetings for the rest of the
year is being approved tonight and I see
a
new object on there concerning uh
limiting the council meetings to three
and a half
hours that that seems appropriate I was
here the night when it went 6 past
midnight um is is there a consensus of
council that in
fact if uh council members get to going
and talking about things that happened
20 years ago and whatnot and your
Council me your Council meetings go to 3
hours and 20 25 minutes that that in
fact not cut out the public comment
section um and also if you have noge if
you go to three hours and 25 minutes I
wouldn't want to see if you have six or
seven people wanting to comment that
that um the meeting just doesn't stop
because of three and a half hours in the
public comment not being at at the end
of the meeting so is that the consensus
of of council that um the last public
comment on the agenda won't be shunned
just because your Council meetings with
this new approval of three and a half
hours are approved tonight right I think
that's not part of it that's the
exception I think there'll be probably
some discussion about this resolution
prior to the time it's voted on thank
you
I guess I'm I'm asking about something
that's not on the
agenda is it is it my impression that
some discussion is going to be
concerning the public safety director
and the the um salary salary ordinance
is on the agenda that's under the salary
ordinance yes
okay the fee ordinance be discussed
tonight yes would that be open to the
public during um that discussion yes
okay thank you thank you
John any other public comment at this
time on agenda
items let me know it
is Norm Wier 600 East Beach Avenue
britin uh I have one question or a
couple questions really on the public
safety director uh on said 70,000 but
52,000 has crossed off for an inam
director of Public Safety now if this is
passed tonight that means that they're
going to have a director of Public
Safety plus an inim public safety
director or is that just
words the answer to that Mr weiner is
that when you have I'm answering your
question oh I I when you have positions
listed in a salary ordinance they are
positions which you could fill they
don't get filled until they get filled
if there is going to be at any given
point in time an interim director Public
Safety if the salary ordinance is
adopted as written the range of salaries
applicable to that position would be as
stated in the ordinance if there was to
be a permanent director of Public Safety
the range of salaries applicable to that
position would be again as stated in the
ordinance adoption of a salary ordinance
does not put anybody in a position does
not appoint anybody to anything and does
not change the compensation of any
existing employee so right now tonight
Mr Howard is our interim director of
Public Safety he's making I believe
$70,000 annually nothing that we do with
the salary ordinance changes that okay
so if it's approved tonight he'll be
getting 70,000 or up to
105,000 no a permanent director of
Public Safety eligible for seven
somewhere in that range right the per
permanent public safety director will be
getting up to
$15,000 that is possible that's the
upper end of the rench right okay now I
think that's ridiculous
myself I don't see and and it comes into
effect where where does the chief of
police come into this situation we still
have a chief of police the judge ruled
to put him back in in service here Greg
tetine and yet he's not here where what
is the situation with them it's going to
end up this city is going to pay
probably over
$100,000 when the city loses this case
and he has to be reinstated well we
Norman this salary ordinance we have a
chief of police an interim Deputy Chief
of
Police um so be honest with you I'm not
sure where the individual would fit with
the salary
ordinance that's great okay great uh and
another thing here uh a couple month ago
I was here at Council and we had one of
the council people get up publicly say
probably in tape that we didn't have
anybody
qualified to move up in the ranks as far
as police en firen there was nobody in
the City qualified to move up now Mike's
question is if we don't have anybody
qualified to move up in the ranks
according to this council person I think
maybe all you aren't qualified to be up
there
either that's my opinion
and in the
meantime Mr we I'm sorry which agenda
item was that I'm not done yet in the
meantime you are in the
meantime according after this meeting I
will be and I'm
not going to not going to be a surprise
I'm going to write the Attorney General
of the state of New Jersey to say if you
can come down here and try and
straighten something some of these
things out that I believe are not right
now he might write back and said that's
everything fine but in the meantime I
will be writing the Attorney General the
state of New Jersey to come down here
and see what's going on with this city
because this city it seems like it's
gone down the
draam thank you thank
[Applause]
you okay any other uh comment on the um
agenda
items yes
Sandy if you would state your name an
address for the record and use the
microphone Sandra Williams 1051 Street
North I'm here to announce a committee
formed by a nonpartisan group of
citizens called concerned citizens for
Brigantine sandyc I I understand that uh
Mrs mlay that wouldn't be an agenda item
so we have to you have to wait till the
second public comment okay okay okay
thank
you okay any other agenda
items yes
Vince Vince Sarah 912 sarisin um wanted
to speak about the uh salary ordinance
that's coming up and more specifically
about the uh public safety director and
the ear positions that are being put in
there um at the last council meeting
that I attended probably two Council
meetings ago uh we were asked to look at
research look at information what facts
support our position that it's not a
good position so went through I found
something from the uh New Jersey Chiefs
Association who talks about how the
whole purpose of a public safety
director is to take away power from the
uh departments themselves and not to add
to the integrity departments one of the
things I found as I that I actually
found interesting that I didn't know
that I would find as I started going
through a lot of the newspaper clippings
you start to see City by city that to
promise this idea that a public safety
director would actually result in a
direct savings to the taxpayers and you
saw a number of elected officials who
made that promise when you go back and
actually look at the tax rates in the
following years and sometimes the
preceding years after that when a public
safety director was put in place and
Chiefs of police were removed taxes
actually went up again um the only
exceptions I saw that were in election
years the taxes held steady so even
though there was elected officials who
could show a direct savings that direct
savings actually never made it to the
taxpayers so I have question about this
ordinance if we start to try to put this
through and we create these
positions although you're saying you're
not going to fill them you have the
ability to fill them I remember when we
were here and we talked about the
possibility of having a public safety
director and we talked about just
creating the job application to see who
was there and you know what I said all
right that's fair I'll listen create it
see what kind of applicant pool we have
next thing we knew somebody was hired so
when you create those positions you are
opening the door to hire somebody
because you're within your right I
actually found some stuff that I found
really interesting and I didn't know
that I would find this and obviously I
try to be fair and honest I did find
some instances where a public safety
director did work and I'll be fair about
that I found where it worked in large
cities where you have such a burden on
the department that they actually need
somebody to handle all the paperwork so
the people in those departments can
continue on with the services they need
to provide the one difference I see
between Brigantine and those large
cities besides size is the fact that the
public safety directors were used with
Chiefs chiefs were in place to run the
Departments and the public safety
director was there in order to enhance
the department it wasn't put in a
situation where you were taking away the
Chiefs taking away the ability of the
Departments to run themselves every
single news article I read comes back to
the fact that although there's a small
Time Savings by putting a public safety
director in place ultimately what ends
up happening is it's used as a tool um
of politics to can politically control
those departments and ultimately take
away from the services of those
departments and one of the things we
have to think about too is once you
start to take away from those
departments and start to take away from
the services that are there you begin to
hurt your community and it's not to say
that you're destroying the Departments
some of the things that people look at
when they are buying homes and they're
looking at the value of communities is
the services that are provided if you
take away the services and you don't
provide good schooling it devastates
home values and we've seen this trend
continuing on in Brigantine for a number
of years even before Sandy and sometimes
I have to wonder I start to look at the
housing sales I start to see what's
posted on Brigantine Now I go on a
website as I went through the riow
system myself and you start to see a
number of homes that are going going for
pennies on the dollar so when we start
to hurt our Public Services we start to
affect the tax base which affects the
amount of money that you have in order
to provide for us as Citizens but the
only people who really benefit from this
are people who deal in land people who
deal in real estate people are coming in
they're making Investments on properties
that once went for 8 900,000 they're
picking them up for 150 160 170 I saw
property go in my home in my um
community
$70,000 if somebody comes in with cash
makes investment they can take advantage
of the decisions we're making here and
that starts to concern me are we
intentionally or unknowingly hurting
property values so that investors come
in and make money that's my concern
thank
[Applause]
you okay any other uh comment on um
items that are on the agenda Mr
Macky James Macky 1325 Varden
Road mayor uh members of council good
evening uh just have a uh a question for
uh for Dr Kern before we uh before I
start Dr Kern first of all I uh appreci
I do uh admire your uh service in the
Navy thank you for your service and I
just have a quick question for you
concerning your Navy service and uh when
you were there who ran the who ran the
Navy do you remember who ran the Navy
yes I who who ran the Navy the chief of
Naval operations at that time was
Admiral Zoom Walt right the chief of
Naval operations but who real who ran
the day-to-day operations of a ship or a
department on a ship where's it James
Macky no it wasn't well it it no but but
it was it was the chief petty
officers and there's a saying in the
Navy called ask the chief ask the chief
is a common phrase heard around the Navy
but what does it really mean the rank of
chief petty officer traditionally
carries with it the title of technical
expert this is the sailor who has been
formally trained in their specialty rate
their job spends every day perfecting
their craft outperforming their peers on
numerous exams and takes pride in being
the subject matter
expert if it's broken the chief knows
how to fix
it the chief understands the services
that are readily available to all its
Sailors to use should they need to find
it the chief knows his or her people and
can tell when something is good or or
bad by the change in one's tone or
inflection the way they walk or by the
change in their performance the chief's
overpowering concern for the well-being
of his or her people will spark a
conversation to figure out the
Dilemma this may be an overt question or
it may be a deliberate flow of
conversation which eventually leads to
the resolution of the issue either way
the chief will get to the bottom of the
problem and I bring that up because the
fire department the beach Patrol and the
uh police department the Chiefs there
are no different from the Chiefs in the
United States Navy or the United States
Coast Guard and uh the uh the thought of
not us not having those in the uh
departments I think it's a true uh a
true travesty and that should be uh
reconsidered and Chiefs need to be
brought back I believe immediately and
with that
said the uh public safety
director I'm uh uh citing the New Jersey
state of Chief uh Chiefs of
police a civilian director cannot
perform police duties including
conducting motor vehicle stops engaging
in Patrol activities answering calls for
service and stopping or detaining
individuals a director may not wear a
uniform for or a badge or carry a weapon
nor may he or she operate a motor
vehicle which was which is equipped as a
police car including police band radios
likewise they have no powers to arrest
and may not issue fire permits further
as a general rule the director may not
have access to criminal investigative
reports nor may he or she have access to
criminal history
information likewise such individuals
must refrain unless otherwise
specifically directed by the County
prosecutor from directing the
investigation of criminal activity nor
May a director as a civilian appropriate
Authority have access to Internal
Affairs investigation files absent of a
court order moreover a director may not
examine confidential police reports or
other confidential law enforcement
documents he can't be a policeman he
can't be a fireman he can't be a
lifesaver or a lifeguard on the
beach if he can't do those things why
are we paying all this money for a high
priced pencil Pusher okay because that's
basically what I see that we have going
on here and no uh no disrespect to uh to
Mr Howard it's the position we're
talking about okay my suggestion is do
away with the uh with the Safety
Director's position at 105 $5,000
bringing bringing new uh firemen uh at a
much lower rate probably between 30 and
$40,000 it it eliminates the the uh it
eliminates the uh having to hire
part-time EMTs at $350 a day because
that's what it is when you hire you say
it's $15 an hour but you put that on a
24hour shift that's
$340 I would bet you uh half the people
here in Brigantine right now the young
young men and women would give their
right arm to have a job that gives them
$340 and at the same time protecting the
lives of the citizens here in Brigantine
so I think we need need to eliminate it
and let's stop the footing around
hire the people we need to hire and get
rid of the public safety director
[Applause]
thank you Mr Macky any other public
comment yes
Mike Mike Snider 10 Beach Co britin it's
uh my understanding this parking behind
stake 38 is is uh I don't know if it's
being decided tonight it's coming up
tonight have have you come up with we
know what we're doing uh can I jump in
um that was actually moved to executive
session per the advice of the the city
solicitor the stake 38 property formerly
the Lagoon had a 10-year contract for
that parking
area stake 38 had a 10-year contract for
the parking area with the city of Brig
tetine my partner myself came in this
summer and we we offered twice what you
were getting for that
property hoping that we could use the
the additional money to make
improvements around that area and I
never got a response from from anybody
on this board the the stake 38 is it's
it's it's a pretty important piece of
real estate for brigatine we're down to
two restaurants right now that that
serve alcohol we used to have seven plus
additional restaurants all over this
island lusta just closed they may may or
may not open back in the spring lagona
is closed in the you know for the winter
months so we we have two restaurants we
have two choices that people in
brigatine can go
to you know I'd like to think that the
city can work with with us and the
millions of dollars that we're invested
in brigatine not just this piece real
estate but other things and and and and
show support for to just to extend the
parking behind that property to us and
to us
solely um Joe fumo who is the property
across the street you know there's
there's a piece of property that that we
could make available to him behind the
cleaners or I'll put in writing at to
Joe and I spoke to Joe tonight before I
came here that we we'd put in writing
that he could use that property his his
people are from 8 in the morning till
till 4 in the afternoon okay if they're
still parked there they're probably
going to become our customers so it's a
win-win for both of us but I mean I I
just I'm hearing this and that and I
don't I'd like an understanding I'd like
some clarification and i' like some help
from brigam I mean nobody else has has
made an investment in this town and is
doing this I can build homes and it's
easy we can take down commercial
property and build homes it's it's very
easy you come on this island you don't
have any restaurants there's millions of
dollars going over the bridge there's
people that just you know they're so
thankful for what we're doing the
Investments we're Mak the seller 32 the
the circle property state 38 we got the
rot and real liquor license we're trying
to do something positive I mean can't
you can you guys help us can you guys
come together as Council not as
Democrats and Republicans just as people
that care about brigatine and and help
us and support us I mean we we can take
money anywhere other towns are offering
us all kinds of things that come over
there and do what we're doing here you
know I we need help we need you guys to
come together and and say what can we do
for you instead of you know what can you
do for us
Mike um I agree we should be able to
resolve this I quite frankly I'm not
sure why we haven't um it just you know
hasn't been on the uh the agenda there
have been a lot of other uh
issues um that have taken a tremendous
amount of time that um you quite you
know in many ways uh your first question
was a probably uh the most important one
you asked what was that uh do we
really know what you're doing um the the
uh the focus you know has to get back on
getting things done um for businesses
getting people um back in homes and
working on um the issues that we can can
return some normaly back to the
community right now things are torn up
but we got to focus on yours I agree
with that I to you know I came we came
to that summer meeting we asked you guys
to just take a ride around Public Works
has anybody literally taking a ride
around that property
several times we offer to to help
rebuild it at our you know at our
expense and get it done for a lot less
than it would cost the city I mean this
but we don't get a response back you
don't I mean Mike Mike it is on
tonight's uh executive session it will
get resolved this evening okay please I
mean guys it's important and Mike I
don't know where you came up with the
idea that this is somehow a Democrat
Republican issue it's no such thing I
hope not I I don't want I I hope we
don't have to hear them work I it's not
it never has been but what it is is a
legal issue and you know this there are
on what we can do with public property
we can't sayy we want to get hey I
wasn't here 20 years ago I don't know
who making those decisions look when you
have public property there's certain
procedures and you know this that we
have to go through before we can put
that property out and let people have
the opportunity to use it on a license a
lease whatever other basis there's no
hostility to Mike Snyder here but don't
ask us to make deals that we legally
can't make that's what we're trying to
figure out tonight how can we put this
out there to the public in a way that
gives everybody a fair opportunity who
has an interest in the property to
acquire an interest in the property it's
it's that simple well I think we we need
to make a commitment tonight to give
this man an answer and hopefully that's
something that we'll be able to do we we
know every day we're spending money and
we're just you know I agree that F you
know these proper everything in binee
fails you know we're trying to create
business that can that that can can
sustain themselves Mike nothing that you
open failed so you got a good track
record but we need help any help from
the city we you guys I mean this was 6
months ago or four months ago we came to
you as and asked you no never got an
answer never nothing U Mike sometimes it
does take time I'll hire the lawyers I
mean I have counsil that can help you
guys if you need help no we're fine we
we
have we have a city solicor and has been
working on it as like the council had
said we are discussing it tonight but I
can tell you as a city manager I believe
that all the mayor and all the council
people um want to make this work for you
and for the community as a whole and we
appreciate he's covered I mean like
we're not we're trying to we and him are
working together right now and we
realize that you're doing that you're
working on other projects together right
now too and you know we're supporting
that and we want it to work out for both
of you is there's just some legal things
that we need to look at but I think
we'll be able to resolve it tonight
please thank you guys so much have a
great
night any other
yes
rich rich de Leon I'm the president of
the PBA good evening everybody I just
had a couple couple questions
the excuse me Mr my address is currently
7359 Driftwood Lane in Maz Landing New
Jersey because I can't live in the
residence on 933 Northshore Drive right
now any more questions from okay thank
you excuse me excuse me okay um um folks
if we can miss Blumenthal I had a
question about the uh interm Deputy
Chief's
positions what do they mean well is
there a job description I mean is my
question the job job description will
fall under what the director of Public
Safety would be in terms of the term
that we use instead of acting as per
what I explained at the last council
meeting well I wasn't at the last
council meeting that's why I'm asking
you now um so there would be a
civilian correct yes it's a civilian
position so all right now that leads me
to my next
question Mr Mackey uh already detailed
the limitations of a public safety
director so now on the the salary
ordinance there is a public safety
director an interim public safety
director an interim Deputy Chief of
Police and an interm Deputy Chief of the
fire department so potentially and I
know that just because they're there
they're not going to be
filled there's four civilians doing the
job that two chiefs could do and those
civilians are limited by state
law I I don't understand that doesn't
make any sense to me I mean you're the
city manager the city pays a pretty good
salary and now there's four other people
to split the duties no it's not four
other people it the titles were no the
titles were put in there on advice of
the labor Council because of the
Judgment that came down from Judge
Menendez that said acting is now the
term acting is now considered a
permanent title in the past our our
municipality Brigantine like many other
municipalities use the term acting for
times when somebody wasn't placed into
the permanent position we can no longer
do that the labor Council told us the
best thing to do would be put in the
salary ordinance terms calling inter
term and they would be used at the same
manner as an acting so no I wouldn't
have an acting and a permanent person at
the same time it's just allowing us to
have an acting position that's now
called internal I didn't I didn't think
you were going to have an acting and a
permanent at the same time but the fact
of the matter is there's potentially
four civilans running the two
departments potentially probably one
public safety director and two interm
Deputy Chiefs but three civilians but
you did read the Mendes decision correct
yes and you know that it says point
blank in there and everybody it's
available on the PBA website acting is
not considered permanent it says it
right in the decision but you keep
saying that the decision came down
saying that acting means permanent that
no that was the decision of the judge he
said since he was in an acting position
that's considered a permanent position
under the statute of the chief's Bill of
Rights that's what he was referring to
right and that's referring to his rights
that were violated not the fact that he
has to be made permanent just because he
was made acting he didn't it doesn't say
he has to be made a permanent because he
was acting it said he maintains in a
permanent pos position acting until a
permanent position is appointed so he's
giving the bill of the statutory
protection of the Bill of Rights of a
chief of police therefore maintaining
him in an acting position where he can't
be removed unless he's indicted that
that's the when I'm saying permanent so
that's why you want the interm deputies
in order to be able to do whatever you
want with them and I think I said that
the last time I spoke without having to
worry about the legal issues and their
employee Bill of
Rights I mean that seems kind of shady
to me I don't I'm just going by the
Rolling you know I don't really have
anything more to add about it and as far
as a labor attorney how come he's never
here he could be here if I asked him to
but I you know typically we don't have a
labor attorney he he pays the city has
paid him a large amount of money since
you've been here so why don't you just
bring him in here let him speak for
himself um actually that's not true we
paid about 30,000 last year in um legal
expenses and in Prior years we spent
upward over 120,000 a year on labor
expenses so actually the labor expenses
in the last year when Arc is here very
low compared to the last five years
average oh okay well I I I don't know if
that's accurate but I will uh it's easy
enough to find out absolutely there's
actually a spreadsheet because that had
been opra from our um Clerk's department
at some point or another okay can I ask
before you go Jennifer how long is the
acting or inter room what's the term how
you know it usually means temporary and
time runs out this has been going on for
a year right acting used to be
considered for us and other
municipalities considered um a temporary
position where somebody can be moved out
of it this new ruling has said preceden
in law throughout New Jersey actually
where the acting no longer is that it's
considered a somewhat of a permanent
appointment unless you know the person's
indicted or there's a permanent person
um appointed to those positions in term
there's no time period it just means in
between like for instance with
superintendent perie retiring you know
we would have to have if we the salary
ordance gets passed or in the past it
would be called acting this time if it
passes it would be called interim we'
put somebody interim until he's through
his terminal leave now for that position
would be a year but you know public
safety director been going going on and
again we haven't made a decision I've
been criticized for asking for a
decision but no I would another month
excuse me I don't want to let me sit
down I I'll I'll have one more question
I just no let me finish my conversation
with the counsilman um I I agree with
you you know that I think above all we
really do need to make a decision
whatever that decision is it is dragging
on and I think you know just from
hearing you know what rich is saying and
you know some other people people want
to know know what that decision is and I
I don't know I would believe that all
Council would agree with me I just want
to say
uh these interim Deputy Chiefs positions
specifically are are made UPS something
they made up to circumvent uh title 40
they made up to cette employee rights
and I think before city council makes a
move to pass a salary ordance that
contains titles like that you should
really look at them because you know how
much bad decisions have caused in
litigation how much money is City so far
this year I'd hate to see it continue
along that track did you couple things
I'll say something nice first um there
was mentioned by one of the earlier
speakers about a uh I believe it was a
study a report done by the Chiefs
Association uh I believe that's probably
the same information that you had
provided us some months back isn't it
possibly it it seemed to cover the same
ground so I just wanted to again thank
you for having provided us that
information and also this past week uh
received an analysis done by BL
detective glass
um Treasure of the PV yes I was going to
ask you so you did get that okay yeah
and i' I've started to look at it and I
think it has some some valuable
information there and IT addresses
belatedly because we have had this
discussion now for seven eight nine
months uh but it does address some of
the financial issues and gives us a
perspective that we didn't have before
and I appreciate that because that's
what we've been asking for some
editorial comments in there but you know
that's okay the question about how much
we spent on our labor Council uh I do
have the breakout in the past six or
five years in 2009
159,000 2010 129,000 2011 95,000 2012
21,000 and uh as of the time I got this
which may not include the last couple
weeks in December $30,000 so in fact the
amount spent on labor and in a year when
as you know there have been a number of
uh ongoing and some what contentious
labor negotiations you know I think
that's a that's a very fair and a very
good number that we've got Mr ler you
saying that all the invoices that have
been incurred by the labor Council that
that's what your totals are including
this is for those years I mean these are
the numbers that I was given by through
the managers I'm not sure who compiled
no it's actually through the finance
through the clerk but through the
finance department okay yeah and what I
asked them to do simply was total up
this was in all categories of attorneys
as a predicate to our looking at our
appointments for this year
I had asked for a history of the
payments and that's what it shows with
respect to the history of Labor
payments
um with respect to your characterization
of the creation of an interim deputy
chief position as being intended to
circumvent it's not simply not it's a
necessity we had never thought about it
we had never thought there would be a
need for it under any
circumstances but the decision that came
down in uh Chief Cox's case necessitated
that and one thing that you will have to
agree with because it is the fact is
that historically our community and many
other communities have had an exercise
the luxury and it was a very valuable
tool to have of being able to place
people into positions on an interim or
an acting basis without having to deal
with the perfectly legitimate rights
that are created by Statute for those
who are permanently in a position and
that has a lot of value because as a
practical matter and we've seen it here
in this town when a chief retired you
know a lot of times they had time to
burn off and you can't have two chiefs
at once so you had to have somebody in
the acting Chief position well that may
not always be the person that you want
to have as a permanent Chief when you go
to a permanent Chief and there might be
other things the person may not work out
um or you want to keep your options open
well that gets taken away at least less
and until the decision is changed on
appeal that's taken away by this
decision that that works to the
disadvantage of the city and it works to
the disadvantage of the employees in the
department as well well because when you
can't have what we' always had in the
past uh that tool available to us now
you have to look in different directions
you have to if you're going to make an
appointment whether whatever title you
put on it you know acting versus
permanent it's essentially permanent in
terms of that person being able to stay
in that position short of being indicted
which you know isn't going to happen so
there's no intent to circumvent anything
okay well maybe I'm maybe I'm Mis uh
misunder understanding that so you're
saying that if you put somebody in the
acting Chie position in in the situation
you just said they're on ter the the
real Chief's on terminal leave his
terminal leave finished he's retired you
have to make that acting guy the chief
no it's not that but in prac in
Practical terms he might as well be a
permanent Chief because the decision
stated that a person in the title or
with the title of an acting Chief is
entitled to exercise all of the rights
and protections that a formally
designated appointed permanent Chief
would yes so in all intense I agree with
it's the same thing and that's something
had not historically been the case there
was always the freedom and we not going
to in the particulars obviously of the
the circumstance came out of your
department uh but there was always the
freedom in the past that if someone was
in an acting position and for whatever
reason the appointing authority and be
it the manager or whomever in whatever
form of government would have the right
simply to say you're no longer acting
I'll put somebody else in acting or I'll
have nobody in acting whatever it might
be you simply can't do that anymore and
you know that
that is an impediment to running both
the department and to running the City
generally so it's you know there's
actually Common Ground there in wanting
to clarify that the alternative is well
the status quo that we have now which is
that under that decision if you are
there in the title of acting and there
was no you've read the decision I know
there was no timetable given there so
the judge didn't analyze it in terms of
you know there's a bright line cut off
for instance if a person's been in the
position 30 days 6 days 90 days whatever
at that point they assume all of the
Privileges of permanent we didn't get
that simply said that you know on a uh
not really analyzed uh consideration of
all the factors in that case that it
fell on that side of it that you know he
should be deemed to be a permanent or at
least entitle to those so he wouldn't be
able to be removed let's say he did do
something wrong and you followed the
proper chains to remove him he would be
subject to discipline the same as a
permanent Chief B so long as the rules
were followed right well and again as
you know his Al Chiefs or acting Chiefs
could be removed without needing to go
through disciplinary processes you know
if you just feel they're not doing the
job you could put them back in their
former position and put somebody else in
that position and there was no issue
with that well now it has to follow the
disciplinary we're told by the court it
would have to follow the same
disciplinary procedures that would apply
to a formally appointed permanent
Chief which and also going along with
that is that as you know to remove a
chief it doesn't because there has to be
a really serious infraction something
you know to the level of an indictable
offense
okay Rich um any other questions uh no
thank you okay any other question
comments if I could um just I know we're
going to have a lot of discussion this
evening on the salary ordinance and um
there's also a u a report um that we
received uh this afternoon afternoon
about the um financial analysis
breakdown on potential of hiring uh
part-time firefighters versus um having
full-time
firefighters um we look at this this
ordinance I I I think we were heading in
the Direction Where We were having a
rather candid conversation
about what exactly are we trying to
achieve um you know with this ordinance
and I think that's the question that
most people in the audience have as well
um you have interim and then you have
permanent you have some positions that
don't even exist we haven't had a deputy
fire chief that I'm aware of in the last
10 years um we haven't had a deputy
police chief um in the last 10 year I
don't know where those positions came
from we have interim deputies now but we
don't have permanent deputies um we have
a chief of police but we don't have
interim chief of police unless I'm
missing that one we have a public safety
director and we have an interim public
safety director I I think we're
confusing the public to the point where
quite frankly they don't know what we're
trying to achieve here um us the
question is for this
Council very clear in my mind do you
want chiefs or do you want a public
safety director and I don't think we
have to go through all these gymnastics
you know in order to to actually achieve
one of those two
goals um my fear is you put this stuff
in the ordinance you wind up getting
someone in that position and we've seen
that happen quite frankly I don't know
how a position gets in the ordinance if
it's not in the code um in the salary
ordinance because the police department
is spelled out exactly what officers are
in that department in the city code but
I think we we need to be honest about
how we feel about what positions we
really want going forward I think we're
we're putting a lot of people's lives in
in a state of turmoil um a lot of people
in the public have questions about where
we're going and we don't have a lot of
uh a lot of real solid research either
um and I've said before I think we have
a hundred years of uh of research that
tells us that Chiefs work but we don't
have a lot of research that tells us
that a public safety director works
so hopefully when we get the dis
ordinance we'll get some clarity from uh
the people who are going to vote on it
and we can move forward and and I'm
going to ask I'm going to ask for for
opinions you know about what people
really think you know in terms of what
they're trying to
achieve um with this particular
ordinance because you know you keep
peeling away I hear you know we it's
Financial I hear it's that we don't have
the people with with the managerial
skills um the finances I've seen both
sides of the argument um I know we have
people with the managerial skills I know
these folks um I'm confused and I'm
sitting here I'm probably as involved as
anyone in this particular process if
we're confused The public's got to be
confused so we really need what the real
motivation behind this is and where the
decisions are going because this is just
absolute
chaos I think have an answer for you
mayor and for Mr weiner uh when we have
Council mayor
comments I say I think I'll have an
answer as to where where we're going why
we're going there what we're trying to
accomplish when we have mayor councel
comments uh and I'll specifically try to
answer uh Mr
Weiner's question to
me tiger
EXC me I'd like to I apologize yeah no
problem
[Applause]
Chuck
wait wait do I have that option yeah the
same Tiger Tiger Ty pl7 coolage Avenue
EPs and I represent the firefighters
tiger can can you tell me what you do
in the Air Force I am a uh a kc1 which
is an air refueling tanker boom operator
and I'm the assistant chief of my
Squadron and uh I've been doing it 22
years now and do you think you have the
skills to be Chief I think there's
numerous people in our department that
have the skills to be Chief college
educated people
[Applause]
I'm sorry what what we expect you say
actually I just spoke the truth that's
all actually later we want to stay on
track here but I think that was a very
good
answer um it was
yeah tiger I uh I have a question for
the city manager Miss
blumthal uh a moment ago I just want you
to clarify something for me did you just
say the interim Deputy Chief of Police
and fire is a civilian
position is that what you just said
interim yes they're civilian so you're
going to bring another
civilian uh Into the Fire depart sorry
they're not civilian they'll be sworn
but they'll be management employees
rather than being Union I'm
sorry okay so they're not civilian no
okay I'm sorry about
that no problem can somebody explain to
me what the difference between a regular
public safety director and an interim
public safety director is is it their
schedule is it how long they're going to
be working here can somebody explain
that to me please it just means that
they haven't been appointed to a
permanent position okay
um so where would they fall into the
city of brigantine's handbook for types
of employment and eligibility for
benefits would they be a probationary
employee a regular full-time employee a
regular part time employee a temporary
full-time employee a temporary part-time
employee or an intermittent employee I'm
just curious where did they fall into
this well actually that would be a
Personnel discussion that I wouldn't
discuss in this forum that's asking how
no I wouldn't discuss in a counil form
however I did receive your email OB that
was my next question yeah I did receive
your email um and we do have a meeting
already scheduled for the 21st I think
it's best if we spend time at that
meeting talking about these type of
personnel issues in addition we've been
revising over the last year the
Personnel policy and I think you made a
lot of good points in your email so I am
taking everything that you said into
consideration that these things do meet
more clarity in the Personnel policy and
I'm working on creating that Clarity
moving forward so in other words I
brought to your attention something that
you guys were violating and now you're
going to decide to change it in the
bottom of the ninth you're going to
change the rules because you realize my
email which went unanswered for 3 weeks
which I ended up cing all of count
to show that I'm trying to have a
dialogue and if we were going to meet
meeting on the 21st disc meeting on the
21st not to discuss what I asked I did
not say that we are in violation of
anything I said that I'm taking your
comments into consideration and as far
as you asking me these questions these
are Personnel questions they are not you
know questions as per the union you know
when we meet your representative of the
Union you're not you know you're making
comments on a Personnel policy that's
involving management staff so and you
know and I understand your right I
already made that clear that I'm not
management material so I would never do
that
[Applause]
yeah so and what I'm saying is that but
I'm still taking into consideration okay
that's where we are right now so there
is no you know the 21st we meeting so
why don't we have this dialogue then you
you are correct I'm not management staff
or management material however director
Howard is now the management for our
department and so why isn't he bring
this up then why is it got to be me to
find this and bring this to the city's
attention know this has been brought up
with the management staff and with labor
attorney you're bringing up in an open
dialogue at a council meeting which is
inappropriate I think it's very
appropriate
um we we didn't violate the law there
are accusations that are unfounded okay
I ask you to refrain from calling out
from your seats so we can move the
meeting forward okay um I at the last
meeting meeting uh I also asked what you
know what the definition of interim was
and I said i' looked it up in the
dictionary and interum means not
permanent not lasting a temporary or
provisional Arrangement so when you
hired Mr Howard in June of last year you
said I did not hire a permanent public
safety director he's here to Mentor the
captains and the Departments and and
make them management thinkers I believe
was your exact words um which none of
that has happen happened yet we're still
waiting but you
know he's a temporary employee he is not
a permanent full-time employee the city
so you are in violation and if I have to
be the one to call it out I will but you
are on page 21 of the city's handbook in
violation with an interim director
that's here now what seven months when
it says temporary full-time employees
somebody works six months or less and
you even said he'd only be here three
months and then you'd make a decision
then you said it's because of the uh
petition that's out there I do have
another question though the part-time
firefighters um the well it's actually a
statement I guess not a question they're
not going to work here you know we have
full-time trained professional staff
that are here 24 hours a day that were
born and raised and grew up on this
island and know this island like the
back of their hand they could close
their eyes and find their way to any
point on this island you tell them an
address they could probably tell you who
lives next door and what color their
house is because they went to school
with them or they grew up with them or
they somebody used to babysit them or
it's this one's grandmother or whatever
it may be you're going to bring
part-time firefighters into this city
you've you've advertised in four
counties for them Kate May glower ocean
and Atlantic counties and you're going
to get somebody to come in here and the
first time they step foot on this island
maybe when they drop their application
off and then as a captain as part of the
Command Staff of the fire department I'm
going to have to now babysit this person
because I can't send him on a truck or
an ambulance or anywhere by himself
because when I tell him to go you know
there's a house on Jenkins Parkway I
need you to go check the wire in front
of it he's say I don't know where
Jenkins Parkway is it's probably out by
a bridge because that's got to be a fast
Road it's called Parkway no it's not
they're not going to be able to find the
streets that we know where's Kirby Place
where's where's FS all these streets
they're not going to know where they're
at so I'm going to have to hand them a
map or give them a garment so they got
to find their way around the island and
you know that our response time is 3
minutes and 12 seconds on average to
anywhere on this island but not when
there's a part Tim driving the truck
because they don't know where they're
going it's going to be a liability to us
to you all of you and to all of you if
you go through with this this is going
to backfire and it's going to fall right
into all of your laps and all the
taxpayers laps to pay the burden for the
mistakes you're making tonight
any other um comment yes
sir Jim KY 108 North roselt Boulevard I
living Brigantine and I pay taxes in
Brigantine no relation to Mr Howard okay
but coming to these meetings I'm finding
that the police firemen do not like this
job not him personally but they're
against this job they want the Chiefs I
would just wish whether it be the
council Fire Department police
department they're so interested in the
taxpayers a
britin put out facts have is we got is
an unsafe the safety has gotten worse
since we this guy's got this job prove
it to us not your opinion show the facts
if you put the facts on the table that
it's got more dangerous down here since
this man's got the job let me gota get
rid of this guy that's all I'm asking
for and to talk about part- timers two
people got up here and do not live in
brigatine so I'm well that's not my
point okay that's not my point my point
is my point is you hire a part- Tim he's
got to learn like everybody else and if
he if he's got right supervision they
will teach him the streets and
Brigantine you don't have to live in
Brigantine to be able to be a fireman or
to work for Brigantine it's obvious
there are some people that work for
Brigantine they're on the salary police
firemen Mr ality workers they all don't
live in Brigantine do they well if
that's the rule if that's the way it
should be fire them and just hire
Brigantine people because that's where
my tax dollars are going and to talk
about the price of real estate and
schools I have no children my son's
third is over
30 but what's going to run me out of
Brigantine is the taxes and you're
paying this man
$70,000 well guess what was published in
the paper I could show you a copy of the
salaries of Brigantine 70,000 is cheap
paying this guy compared to you're
paying firemen policemen municipality
workers this guy's dirt cheap and
there's no relation to me thank you for
your time thank you Mr
K yes Jan
my name is Jane Pelt tonin I live at 203
11 Street North and I I'm addressing the
question of hiring Chiefs versus a
public safety director and I would like
to quote the newest research that has
come out in this town that I have seen
at our Civic Center on Saturday and that
is a documentary put out by Beth Bliss
from the Atlantic County Library uh
videographer was Taylor
vaness so many of your faces were were
in this video and the one thing that
I as a resident felt sitting there
watching everybody that were Sandy
victims people who helped the Sandy
victims was that the firemen the police
the city workers and the Public Works
were our
heroes that needs to be recognized and
respected because the people in this
town gave you how they felt about the
services they received I thank you all
my
[Applause]
heroes thank you Jane and um I saw all
of those
uh stories that um people in Brigantine
told about their experiences and and I
concur with you I I would
say majority of the people talked about
um the police fire and public works and
the job that they did um during super
storm Sandy majority of
people any other public comment on
agenda
items yes Mrs fable
hi my name is Jackie Fable I live at for
Hudson Cove I've been a resident of
Brigantine for 39
years and I sit
here thank you all right I can recall
being at meetings when we had
Commissioners and I looked at everything
here you know things haven't really
changed much except the Commissioners
way back then they were Brigantine
residents all the time they got up they
said what they had to because they felt
Brigantine is where they lived they
wanted to do what is best for
Brigantine I'd like to say that is still
the case I have grandchildren that go to
school here in Brigantine I have a son
who lives here in Brigantine my other
Sons do not live in Brigantine I've seen
many changes here I am not happy with a
lot of them as many are not but when we
talking about
replacing our public service for fire
department the beach Patrol the police
people I go back way back with a lot of
these before they became the positions
they went to school with my sons they
grew up they cared enough to stay and
take those positions I had an incident a
couple weeks ago where I went to the
police station about something I
received in the mail the first four
people that came out to inquire while I
was there that oh you're so and so's
mother I remember we went to school with
those kids and yes they
did it's a little bit of a heartwarming
experience when the people who care and
work through Brigantine grew up here
they're talking about a deputy to
oversee everything has this man ever
gone on a fire call has he ever answered
a police response has he ever going out
on a rescue in Brigantine beaches one of
my grandsons is a
lifeguard worry about him every day when
he went to work worry about my sons that
are all grown I feel experienced if
you're going to put somebody in a
position let them have the background of
what they are looking into I had an
incident many years ago where we had a
fire in our house in of all nights New
Year's Eve Fire Chief came down with the
whole course of the people
we got our children out I had foster
children at the time they went out we
were the only ones living on Hudson Cove
I had to get all my family into a
neighbor on Hudson Drive the Chief came
into the house along with the workers
was a fire in the dryer and the whole
house full with smoke and the fire chief
said to me Jackie your smoke alarms
never went
off I never caught that he did did and
it's true we had put the smoke alarms up
recently prior to that and they never
went off he told me what to do to go
back to where wor them which was Sears I
may add and they made good on that
fortunately it wasn't a major
catastrophe but I feel we need people in
Brigantine who know Brigantine I don't
need somebody living I don't know how
many miles away to tell us what is good
in Brigantine I think that's the
original concept we had that is where we
should still have it I know when I used
to walk in the commissioner meetings I
will never forget there was a man
elderly gentleman Jim Rini lived down a
long Lagoon somewhere and I walk in and
the man would shudder and he would say
Here Comes Trouble I've mellowed over
the past years I feel enough of the
backstabbing and everything we've got to
get to the point of what is good in
Briant when we call somebody out they
know what they're talking about and I
hope that's the way it'll continue thank
you for your time thank you Mr
T my name is aie Pelt tonin 2031 Street
North do I came here in the late 60s I
started teaching career when I first
started teaching they told us you're not
going to make a whole lot of money but
you're going to have benefits and
they're going to have good benefits and
a retirement package and that gave me
incentive to keep going with my
profession they said maybe after five or
seven years you'll have these different
steps and eventually you know you'll be
doing okay all right that's why I was a
school teacher I didn't go in there with
somebody telling me Oh you're going to
be a part-time teacher you're never
going to have any benefits nothing like
that no pens
okay that stinks all right that's why I
don't think we anybody pour time now if
you've ever watched Chicago Fire which I
watched last night those guys have their
back that Chief is right there with them
I don't if you ever seen Chicago Fire
have you that's a great show if that
Chief is right there he knows what's
going on and his respect them and those
guys are in a Brotherhood and they know
when they go into a dangerous situation
someone's going to be watching their
back so we we need to keep that the way
it is we need our Chiefs back and we
need our Brotherhood of firefighters to
stick together on this thank
you thank
[Applause]
you okay any other public comment on
agenda items anything else on Joe
good evening Joseph Maguire
606 Lafayette Boulevard Brigantine I
just want to address in the salary
ordinance part-time firefighters and
make sure it's crystal clear to you
members of council as you vote tonight
what you are about to do okay first of
all we work as a unit in the fire
service and you can go anywhere in the
country and they work as a unit okay
when you look at brigantine's Department
state law you can't mandate that a
firefighter or a police officer lives in
the municipality where they are employed
but over 80% of the fire department
lives on the island chooses to be a part
of this community chooses to raise their
family here all right and chooses to do
things other than their careers in in
the department such as coaching
volunteering time things that we do
constantly as a group for this city okay
you start to bring parttime employees no
pension no benefit no security no
knowledge of the island and they're
going to work what once a
month how are these people going to be
trained to the standards to respond as a
group and the answer is they're not
they're never going to be able to put
enough time I'm in and the scary thing
is that nobody's mentioned is not only
are you putting the Public's lives in
jeopardy with part-time employees you're
putting your employees lives in Jeopardy
we work with a six-man minimum that
number didn't come out of the air that's
to meet the twoin two out standard a guy
that runs the pump to make sure that the
guys that go in the house get the water
and an Incident Commander that runs the
scene and now bringing part-time guys in
one of those intricate
pieces is going to be someone that's not
familiar with the crew he's working with
he's not familiar with the island he's
not familiar with how we operate and if
you sit there with all the reassurance
of a used car salesman and tell the
camera that I assure the citizens of
Brigantine they're going to be safe well
I'll tell you that's being disingenuous
plain and
simple and at the end of the
day you must realize all right that if
you tell people that part-time workers
aren't going to make them unsafe
part-time
firefighters I'll tell you what you can
say it
but someone gets hurt or God forbid
someone gets killed the liability issues
on your hands are huge
huge and everyone should know that going
into this okay because we're trying to
play pretend and we're talking about
bringing a civilian in to run a
department on top of the civilian public
safety director okay and everything that
was accused of the Republican party for
the last 20 years is exactly what you're
doing you don't want a qualified member
of the department to run that department
you want to bring somebody
that you can control plain and simple
plain let's tell it like it is really
you don't
want you don't want a 100 years of
experience sitting in that department to
pick a chief from like 500 and other
some municipalities in the state of New
Jersey like every other department in
the country that's run by a chief you
want to create some
position from someone that's not
familiar with this town
and someone that's not familiar with how
we operate and is a civilian so you can
tell them what to do plan plain and
simple not follow the law which
certainly we seem to have been having
problems with lately in this
municipality okay not following
standards that are safe and meeting
compliances and again you guys sit up
there and you smirk and you think this
is funny and I'll tell you this I just
want to thank Dr Kern for stating
publicly at the last council meeting
that what's going on here is personal
and political cuz my lawyer had a fi day
with that thank
[Applause]
you yes M Williams
IED okay hi everybody all right my name
is Kitty Williams I um owned a home at
419 West Drive for 45 years but I no
longer own it it's going to be
demolished because of Sandy I know I
live at uh 107 Quay Boulevard and I have
to tell you that I came from Ireland 49
years ago tomorrow I lived in Atlantic
City for year and a half and I moved to
Brigantine when I moved to Brigantine I
knew that I was never going to leave
this island never I've told you mayor
Gunther on the beach and Brigantine this
is the nicest cleanest place anywhere I
have company that comes from Ireland I
have company that comes from all over
the country Irish GS that married
Americans just like I did and they all
say the same thing the beaches are
Immaculate the place is immaculate and
it was Immaculate before you were
what you people here you over here
before you were ever elected it was
Immaculate back then and it's an
accurate number and I don't know what
you people intend to do to improve on
Perfection because this Ireland this
island was perfect when I first came to
it and it's perfect today what do you
intend to do to improve on
Perfection thank you mayor Gunther thank
you because you were the people that
started it and you were the people that
kept it it was nice then and you're
keeping it nice and that's thank you
thank
[Applause]
you thank you Mrs Williams any any other
comment on the um on the
agenda have to remind you that I was
against two public
portions just just throwing that out
there
uh with that said we're going to move on
with the agenda
um okay um we have a representative uh
George from
vital um is going to give us a quick
update on the
reial um George if you would yeah uh
basically we've been uh We've conduct
been conducting our inform formal
meetings with the property owners over
the last two weeks uh continuing to do
so our last day is going to be uh the
Saturday uh we have included uh believe
14 days
total uh couple evenings three different
Saturdays for the convenience of
property owners to be able to come in uh
some just want to and the response has
been relatively moderate uh most of the
people who've come in have been uh very
polite and courteous and we've tried to
be the same uh some people just want to
check the information and
they're
uh not disagreeing that the value they
think the value is reasonable most of
the people coming in think the value
should be reduced which is not shocking
but we are taking a look at all those
and trying to review them uh there's
been a couple couple rare instances
where people wanted their assessments to
go up but we don't generally do that um
uh at any rate
uh the response has probably been about
6% of the the total taxable properties
so it's been been on the moderate side
uh we do have some extra Personnel
generally available if there's any
questions people need information verifi
we can send somebody back to the house
with them to do an inspect basically
it's been it's been going real well
George uh what dates are left uh for
people to come in uh the dates are left
for people to come in are really uh
today's Wednesday it be uh tomorrow
Friday and Saturday so anyone interested
should obviously give us a call in the
morning okay I I think that's important
information because some people I know
um have said you know I'd like to go in
and talk to uh vital about my assessment
we're you're running out of time for for
this informal process so you have about
three days yeah three more days three
more days here so if you if you need to
do that please and the number again
George yeah uh it's better to call us at
well there's two numbers
266
6690 or
272
6690 and yeah I mean we we did allow you
know ask people to call us within seven
days but sometimes it gets by people and
they they put it off so but they should
call us as soon as possible if they have
any concerns sometimes we can just
answer some minor questions over the
phone if they have concerns about some
specific things George I just want to
say that uh I came in and it wasn't too
busy and some other people came in from
the island and they couldn't get through
and your guys took care of them right
away I I applaud you on that your help
was very helpful and professional yeah
try try to help out as best we can it
great it's a difficult process for
people would understand
yeah very good anything else you want to
add J no I think that's all unless
anybody's got the council or Public's
got any any other Council questions for
George okay thank you and sorry you had
to keep you
uh interesting and informative
yes watch your back probably good that
I'm
brief good thank you thank you very much
take care thank you
okay okay next um we move to um
resolution
2014-2 is Award of the professional
service
contract uh for municipal attorney do we
have a uh
nomination make a motion that we appoint
Fred cery of Parker McCay as our
Municipal attorney for the 2014 calendar
year okay do we have a second I'll
second
that okay can we have a roll call please
Simpson oh my
God yes mlay yes Mardi yes duri yes Pila
yes Hearn yes mayor Gunther yes motion
carried thank
you uh next we have a resolution um
which would be I guess 9A item 9A
resolution how you going to number this
one it going to be 2A no that that's
14 okay number 10 number 16 I thought
you wanted to go to the risk manager
agement consult that wasn't until I
think number 16 oh you're going to move
it to the end okay all right resolution
2014-3 to award a uh professional
service contract for labor Council we
have a a nomination please I'd like to
nominate Eric Bernstein for labor
Council
second okay had a motion in second um
could we have roll call please Simpson
no mlay yes Mardi yes duri yes Pila yes
Kar yes mayor Gunther uh no motion
carried um next need a
um resolution 2014-4 W of Professional
Service contract for municipal engineer
have a motion and second
please so move second actually we need a
nomination I'm sorry yeah
nomination you g to do the whole
second the list uh we could amend uh
this motion to follow the system that
we've first introduced last year to
create a pool of eligible Engineers who
will be asked to give bids on a
individual job basis through the year oh
M uh that was moved by I
okay it would be Endicott engineering
Roberts engineering Remington and
Vernick PSNS hatch and McDonald and Mer
n
c okay motion second
second okay can we have roll call please
Simpson yes mlay yes Mardy yes duri yes
Pila yes Kar yes mayor Gunther yes
carry Okay resolution 2014- five um is
award Professional Service cont contract
for Bond councel we have a nomination
please i' make a motion to we appoint
Joel fleshman of fman
Daniels I second
that okay can we have a roll call
please Simpson yes mclay yes bardi yes
delri yes Pila yes F yes mayor Gunther
yes motion carries Okay resolution 2014-
6 word of Professional Service contract
for municipal auditor
have a nomination please I'd like to
nominate uh Bowman and Company as
the municipal auditor and I'll second
that okay we have a roll call please
Simpson yes mclay yes Mardi yes Del Yesa
yes bur yes mayor Gunther yes motion
carried Okay resolution
2014 um D7 Award of Professional Service
contract for the prosecutor have a
motion a second please I'd like to move
that we appoint William Wheels Reynolds
as the prosecutor AKA
a I second
that could we have a roll call please
Simpson yes mclay yes Mardi yes delri
yes Pila yes Kar yes mayor Gunther yes
motion
Carri okay next we need a u resolution
2014 d8 award professional service
contract for the conflict prosecutor we
have a nomination
please I'll make that nomination I'd
like to nominate
um um Jim schroer of the schroer law
firm
second could we have roll call please
Simpson yes mlay yes Mardi yes luy yes
Pila yes Kar yes mayor Gunther yes
motion carried Okay resolution 20 14-9
award professional service contract for
the public defender we have a nomination
please um I'll make that nomination
mayor I'd like to nominate um Jerry
Steiner um of the Steiner law
office I'll second
that who second sorry
Frank Jerry Jerry Jerry
stey okay can we have a roll call please
Simpson yes mclay yes yes bardi yes duri
yes Pila yes Hearn yes mayor Gunther yes
motion carried okay um now exra okay now
we have risk management now we need um
resolution to appoint a risk management
uh
consultant have a motion second please
so move need a nomination rather syus
syus syracusa I'll nominate syracusa I
second that
okay can we have a roll call please
Simpson yes mclay yes Mardi yes duri yes
Pala yes hear yes mayor Gunther yes
motion carried okay um move to ordinance
number one of 2014 is an introduction of
the fee
ordinance you have a motion in second
please move second any discussion
I I I I still think a lot of fees are
should remain the same especially with
the year we just had going through
Sandy um we're also holding fast on our
buildings permits we're not charging
people for that so I don't think we
should be raising fees at this
particular
time Andy on I'm philosophically with
you but um as I look at this not so many
fees are being raised and they appear to
be pretty nominal minimal increases they
are but a lot of people Nal is there a
lot for
them that we can hold it for one more
year I'd like to see
that because it's not that it's not
going to impact our
budget Andy is it certain fees or all
the fourwh drive fees were um they were
they were big and but I I just think as
a Fe and hold right now we should just
hold for one more
year give people more another break you
know we just got a letter I think it was
from Jennifer her email stating that she
doesn't want to charge anybody for uh
building permits at this point right to
extend they extend the waiver that
council did earlier yeah and we're going
to do that why can't we just do the fees
because the fees are $5s and this well
the fees that we're not we're holding
are Rel related to Sandy the majority of
them are the the meranti licenses um the
beach permit fees things like that
talking about the building fees that
we're that we're not charging for are
not all building fees on the island
they're building fees that are
associated with remediation for San and
new con some are new construction fees
too yeah and you know they could be5 and
$10,000 a permit
right uh well any one area of this
ordinance that uh I don't know if it
falls into that same category as you
were thinking with respect to raising
like the mertile fees is in
section
12 sorry I think it's section 12 it's on
page 20 of the copy we have we have uh
some new provisions dealing with
compensation for police detail fire and
Beach Patrol when their service is
required because as we know they're not
by law allowed to donate their services
so when they're needed for various
special events around town um they're
entitled to be compensated and the
money's got to come from somewhere so I
think we have a maybe a bigger question
yeah but we we were talked about that
last time with the the polar be blune we
were going to talk about who we were not
going to charge and who you know for I'm
saying this that's right now there's
language in here though which sets a
kind of a uniform policy that if you
need their services you're going to pay
whatever amount of money okay so if but
should it be delineated in here whether
it's a a
nonprofit Island base charity type of uh
well the problem you run into Phil
though is that once again the law kind
of gets in our way that we can't
differentiate
between much as you may want to uh
between one recognized 501c3 or another
and not that they'll have to be 501 c3s
but that's typically what you have you
know a a recognized registered not for
profit uh or charitable organization we
can't differentiate between them and say
this one because of some particular
characteristics we're going to provide
reduced price for free services and
another one we're not going
to now is there some some way to work
around the fringes on that there might
be but I think that's a discussion we'd
have to engage Fred in and I know he's
not at the moment ready to engage in
that
discussion well Fred I think the issues
we have you
know you have groups that that run large
events here on the island
that that raise a significant amount of
money that goes back to the island the
Elks being one of them with their events
but also it's it's a tourism um
issue you know for the for the community
as well you know where you're you're
bringing in a lot of people you know
during bayfest and during some of the
other events that they have that that
it's actually good for the whole
community so I think the question is how
do you differentiate you know if
someone's doing a construction on on
Brigantine Avenue and they need traffic
detail that's built
in you know for that type of a purpose
it's you know their costs are are known
Jennifer these times what do you do with
the
nonprofits sorry the Fe are the fees
time
Sensi sorry I couldn't hear you are the
fees time sensitiv no I we can um can we
table this and maybe discuss this
before yeah whatever Council would like
I mean this is nothing that we
mandatorily have to do it's just we try
to update it you know annually or
something near about so we stay
consistent with surrounding communities
and what we need to cover our expenses
but it's nothing we would have to do we
had a little discussion last time when
the polar B lines was going to get
charged and right the firefighters and
the police department right right now
what we're doing with that is combining
so I think we we should decide what
charities you know are we going to
charge them we're not going to charge
them or if we're going to charge all
Charities um like Rick says if it's the
law well uh I'm okay with tabling it
myself um but coupled with ask asking Mr
cery to look into and and come back to
us at the next meeting if possible with
some some sense of what the legal
constraints really are you know what
what are we obliged to provide to whom
and on what
terms we you know from my perspective we
can do that I mean I I understood that
this particular issue arose because the
fee that was in the fee ordinance
previously was not sufficient to cover
the cost that the municipality incurs
when these officers have have to go out
and pull the special Duty and they're
being paid so that that's why the
language that councilman deluk referred
to earlier was was recommended and
that's why it went in uh as to the the
second issue uh that the mayor is
Raising uh I think there may be a way
that if you having an event that is a
that effectively is a public event it
may be sponsored by a nonprofit but it
has serious public implications for the
community there may be a way that
Council on a case-by Case basis could go
ahead and wave the fees because of the
public impact of the event I'll be glad
to take a look at that and we can talk a
little more next meeting but that would
be the direction that I would be looking
to go in uh a serious public overtone
benefit to the community we can probably
find a way to get
there thank you Fred I think that would
be important to Fred could could you
check and see what other municipalities
do in this regard as well sure um I did
reach out to a number of municipalities
after the last meeting and I got you
know less than a hand responses but the
ones that did respond said they do
charge for the Civic
organizations and um the nonprofits as
well as the profit organizations but I
think the mayor made a good point and
councilman Pella at the last meeting too
that these are um like the Polar Bear
Plunge specifically does bring in a lot
of Tourism that helps our local
businesses after the plunge they're at
lagona they're at Andre's they're at the
pub and you know they are bringing that
time of year too yes that's a nice shot
M I just put that was another pole of
air plunge that was asked about having
emergency services standby on February
was another nonprofit um that question
I'm not sure what those folks decided to
do but that question came up again right
after the last polar of a punch so it
seems to keep coming up unfortunately
and they're also giving to the Fisher
house again a very worthwhile charity
but they made sure to put that in their
email their request that they're giving
their donations are going to Fisher
house so it starts to become murky at
best yes
put a pair of shorts on out there and be
the
Lifeguard okay okay we're going to
table all right we need a mtion a motion
to table
it make a motion to table a second
second I'll second all in favor I I
anyone
opposed okay um next we move
to a resolution 2014
-10 which is the temporary
budget whereas New Jersey statutes
provides uh where any contract
commitment or payments are to be made
prior to the final adoption of 2014
budget of temporary Appropriations
should be made for the purposes and the
amounts required in the manner and time
therein provided whereas uh the date of
this resolution is within the first 30
days of 2014 whereas 26 and 1/4% of the
total appr Appropriations 2013 budget um
of any Appropriations made for interest
and uh debt uh Redemption charges
Capital Improvements and public
assistance is
6,722
1850. therefore if it resolved this is
the temporary budget have a motion
second please so move
second any
discussion okay see n roll call please
Simpson yes mlay yes Mardi yes luk yes
Pila yes K yes mayor Gunther yes motion
Carri okay uh next we have the
resolution uh
2014-11 uh which is the 2014 council
meeting
dates we have a motion and second please
so move I should uh like to say that
there are two Saturday meetings on the
uh proposal okay
Frank just need a quick second uh I'll
second Frank okay there are two Saturday
meetings scheduled one in May and one in
August uh for those people in the
community who cannot make it on a
Wednesday night
meeting excuse me Frank um which which
version are you looking at right now I
ask the one I have shows that we're
calling for Saturday meetings May May
June you got that Jun
May and June yes
sorry and let's change the PM to am in
May okay what's that the 24th
yeah we always had that um three and a
half hour limit that's nothing new until
we on the bottom
just can we put a time limit on them
Saturdays because they can go it
midnight
uh I would like Council to consider just
removing the three and a half hour
limitation if in practice we can't
because I think when we've run over
three and a half hours it's because we
can't cut it off it's because there's
public input or just too many things on
the
agenda um and I would suggest maybe one
or two additional Saturday meetings
possibly in April and
September although I'm not committed to
those months I think if we could move
four of our meeting
total to Saturdays um that i' spread
them out a bit through the year that
would be you know optimal and Mr son is
a big supporter of
that and instead of grouping them though
how about making them once a
quarter
okay well does it make sense to happen
in May and June that's what that's what
I'm saying if we spread it across
originally they were May and August
those were my recommendations
right before this the season
began uh right before the Memorial Day
weekend and uh right before the season
ended late in August so those were my
original
recommendations change the
motion the
um Can can we change U motion I'd like
to change the motion that's been
seconded or amend the motion that's been
seconded well we're having discussion
right now we can change the whole thing
at this point right
just so the proposal is to have uh four
Saturday meetings one per
quarter
no that's I think that's what Jo said
but he saying four but they're May June
August
September no I don't think that's what
you no that's I was saying spread them
out instead of having them all grouped
in uh May June August and September move
them to one a quarter
that's my suggestion you know what I'd
like to make a recommendation I think if
we're going to add Saturday meetings one
should maybe be in April during our
budget period to allow people to come in
to discuss budget that can't get here on
Wednesday nights
M so April actually would
be 19 second quarter right so you'd have
one
in January one in April
J if we have it in April do you want to
have it the first Saturday in April the
fth
April April 5th I think we you know what
I think we might need to
just agree to the first couple dates and
then come back because you know we're
talking April we don't know when I don't
know off hand when Easter is or Passover
or anything else is at this
point okay have a calendar
so so council is of a mind to
do anywhere between two and four
Saturday meetings can you make a
decision as to which one you want um my
decision would be to follow the
manager's recommendation and save about
a half an hour of discussion by adopting
what we have in front of us minus three
and a half hours and revisiting you know
as we move through the year to see when
we can plug in one or two more if we
still want to do that yeah I I think
that's a good suggestion Rick and I
agree with you on the three and a half
hour in principle we'd love to be able
to do that but we're we're violating our
own
ordinance okay any other
discussion okay see none um could we
have roll call Simpson on what on I
think exactly what's there just changing
the am to
pmm am rather and getting rid of the
three and hour three and a half hour
getting rid of the three and a half hour
Simpson yes mclay yes Mardi yes duri
Yesa yes turn yes mayor Gunther yes
carry next will be designating the
official Banks resolution
2014-12 and
uh here we go
okay and this uh would allow the um city
manager to
um city council designates the New
Jersey state of New Jersey Cash
management fund and New Jersey bank or
savings alone providing evidence
participation under government unit
deposit
act we have a motion a second please so
move
second so um any discussion
so Jennifer how do we get to the
official bank it's a recommendation by
the CFO typically it doesn't change so
much from year to year so is she ready
to make that recommendation or yes I
think we're just moving ahead with the
same ones we had this
year okay can we have roll call please
Simpson yes mclay yes Mardi yes Del yes
filla yes K yes mayor Gunther yes Mo car
resolution
2014-3 designating official newspaper
the beach Co renews the Atlantic City
press and the Philadelphia
Inquirer have a motion second please so
move
second any
discussion see n we have roll call
please Simpson yes mclay yes Mardy yes
delri yes Pila yes hear yes mayor
Gunther yes motion Carri
okay next is designating uh the
appointment of the GIF fund or excuse me
the GIF safety coordinator and that
would designate John doring as the GIF
safety coordinator motion a second
please so moved second any discussion is
John going to take on that awesome
responsibility I'd like to say that
John's been our safety coordinator and
he's done an excellent job I'm voting
against them in fact our um he's one of
the reasons that our loss ratio is down
at the city and that affords us less
expensive GIF Insurance than some
comparable
towns good work absolutely okay can we
have roll call please Simpson yes yes
bardi yes duri yes Pella yes Kar yes
mayor Gunther yes motion Carri and now
we have resolution 2014-15 appointment
of the recycling coordinator
which is another half for John doring
have a motion to second please so move
second any
discussion I would like to just say that
our recycling rate has increased in
Brigantine from 41% to 52% thank you
John good job in the public
works Simpson yes yes Mardi yes yes P
yes Kar yes may Gunther yes motion
carried um next we have the appointment
of the storm wer coordinator and that
would be uh George Moore we have a
motion second please so move
second Simpson yes mclay yes bardi yes
duri yes yes K yes mayor Gunther yes
motion
Carri next would be the appointment
resolution 20
20147 uh the appointment of the GIF fund
commissioner and claims coordinator and
this would be Karen Thomas for motion
second
please I'll make that motion
second Simpson yes mlay yes Mardi yes
deluk yes Pila yes he yes mayor Gunther
yes motion
Carri okay uh next is resolution uh 2014
14-8 which is the work change order for
the final concrete repair at various
locations and uh this is amending uh the
contract with El ferazzi concrete
company um from
$4,225 to$ 26,2 40 a net increase of
$2,115 or excuse me
$215 we have a motion second
please so moved second Ed do you want to
talk a little bit about the quantity
Chang yes thank you mayor this is a
contract that was awarded to replace
damaged concrete curb and sidewalk at
several places throughout the island
that were identified after the cleanup
of Sandy uh during the construction
there was additional curb replaced at
Ocean Drive and also on 7th Street North
uh that was determined in the field as
we were removing the damage that was
identified U I was out there and and
observed concrete curve that needed to
be replaced likewise the sidewalk
additional sidewalk had to come out on 7
Street North that was a result of
actually the way the existing sidewalk
had been poured uh so when we started to
take it out it because it was the the
curbing was oversized monolithic poured
uh it damaged additional side
Sidewalk that's the different the um the
Chang is in increase of 2015
thank you a any additional questions
from
Council n we have roll call please
Simpson yes yes bardi yes delri yes yes
he yes may guner yes motion carry okay
next we move to resolution
2014-19 the acceptance of the shoreline
monitoring proposal from the Richard
Stockton College of New
Jersey have a motion second please
excuse me
mayor but I um uh there's two proposals
from Stockton they're both both attached
behind the resolution uh but I I spoke
with Jennifer and Fred if we could add
to the resolution in addition to
accepting the proposal for the continued
monitoring of the municipal Shoreline uh
but also to prepare the Grant
application for the Department of
interior Hurricane Sandy Coastal
resiliency Grant so this is an
application it's a nationwide Grant we
are applying for with Stockton as our
subc consult uh and the D as our partner
to a federal department for a grant to
approve a back PR passing project along
our ocean front where we would take sand
from the south end and move it to the
North End and be able to demonstrate
through monitoring uh the effectiveness
of that process
great okay um can we have a motion in a
second please so move second any
discussion okay say none can we have
roll call please Simpson yes M yes Mardi
yes du Yesa yes K yes mayor vther yes
motion
Carri um mayor if I may uh ask before we
get to the next item our Council and
manager discussion could we do a voice
resolution for the planning board
appointments
yes and I'll make that if that's all
right okay we have a nomination for
appointments to the planning board
for
the year 2014 as the class one member of
the board which is the mayor of the
municipality I would nominate the mayor
uh Phil Gunther for the class two
appointee an employee of the community
uh I would nominate Tim daily class
three member of council uh councilman P
Tony
Pella class four two appointments for
the two expired terms on the board and
uh I would nominate two of last year's
alternates Mike brindy and Roberta Fusco
to assume those class four
positions and recognizing but not having
to vote on in this motion that there are
two
continuing class for appointees who were
initially appointed last year Dory
hearnen and carad Wier and to other the
two final class for um we have to
evaluate further uh what their status is
to determine when their terms expire so
for purposes of the motion it's the
classes one two and three and two
persons Mike brendy and Roberto Fusco as
class
four okay do we have a second so move
for a second
okay could we have roll call please
Simpson yes mle yes Mardi yes duuc
yes U yes with K
right mayor Gunther yes motion
Carri okay
um next we move to
uh there is a a I guess an analysis of
the part-time firefighter
um that uh you'd like to discuss before
we discuss the salary ordinance uh sure
can I just um go over the other two
items because they'll be very quick I
believe one is to continue the waiver
for the construction permits until um I
believe June 30th would be adequate
right now we have people that are just
um demolishing and building because
they're just now receiving some funding
including insurance money so these
waivers would be what we did before just
be continuation of the waiver to allow
people that are building rebuilding from
Sandy not to pay the fees they still
have to come in and get the permit but
the fee would be
waved okay is a council absolutely okay
uh I need a motion to uh continue uh
waving the fees for Sandy impacted
properties s second second and that will
be until June 30th until June 30th yes
is that okay
yes that that's an inter
okay we had a motion second uh we have
roll call please Simpson yes clay yes
Mardi yes Del Yesa yes Kar yes may
yes okay and next we have the uh
external color of taxi cabs we
did we did a Mor orium on um the code
that wouldn't allow us to have more than
one color for the taxi cabs as a request
by the taxi cab companies last year we
first had it I think to earlier in the
year extended it until this fall and I'm
asking since we haven't had any problems
to continue to extend until August
31st okay need a motion a second to
extend the um allowance for multicolored
taxi cabs I'll make the motion
we have a second second and during that
time we may want to consider changing
the ordinance so we don't have to do
this uh every year every yes six months
no I I agree uh the reason that I'm not
suggesting it right now because
originally this came up because the tax
cabs are looking at and I don't know
what it's technically called but um that
wrapping that they've been doing in
Atlantic City on some of the jitneys and
buses none of them have done that at
this point so we don't know if it's
going to be an issue moving forward but
I want to leave an opportunity for them
to very good okay can we have roll call
please Simpson yes to the robing mclay
yes Mardi yes dely yes P yes Hearn yes
mayor Gunther yes motion
car okay
um I know everyone probably received the
uh an analysis late this
afternoon um concerning
the
um what's in the salary ordinance with
part-time
firefighters so the city manager has
sent out um her analysis of what the
potential savings could
be and um at this point we can begin
that
discussion are you talking about the
analysis in here no there was an email
that went out late this afternoon about
you would have received a hard copy too
from
[Music]
Lynn thank you is this
mine
pass now Jennifer if you want to go over
your analysis uh sure
I wanted to bring up a discussion of the
part-time firefighters because some of
the questions that come up on prior
Council meetings I realized you know
there may be not some clarity amongst us
all about what what this really meant on
a management staff level and these are
things I spoke to with um both Chief
Hall and director Howard um about
implementing as a possibility of moving
forward this came about as um an option
after last year when mayor and Council
said on the advice of the auditor that
we really need to look at cutting salary
and wages and I believe all of Mayor and
all of council did not want to have any
type of layoff so we thought attrition
would be the best way moving forward
talking to Chief Hall talking to
director Howard and even talking to some
of the captains of the fire department
um their concerns with Staffing they
didn't really feel that reducing the
platoon any further down that they've
already been reduced was really a viable
option so looking at ways is to continue
Staffing maintain Staffing at the levels
that we're already staffed at while
doing it at a less cost to the taxpayer
we came up with the idea of possibly
having part-time firefighters way to do
this so um I did an analysis to show
what some additional costs that we would
have having the part-time firefighters
but also where the savings would lie and
if we man continue Staffing at the same
levels and that's by having the same
amount of hours covered by part-time
instead of full time employees the
greatest savings really comes from the
health benefits and then next in line
would be the um the pension costs and
also the reduction and salary cost and
that's seen more overtime because the
part-time um figures in the salary
earners go from $15 an hour to $20 an
hour whereas currently if you look at
the hours for our newly hired
firefighters is 19 but the steps move up
rapidly as they go through the the steps
and the yearly increases which can be
around you know 14 to 16% per year which
you wouldn't see with the part-time and
I've have some figures in there I'm not
sure if you had a chance to look at it
but basically in the first years where
we' have the largest Savings of
approximately
420,000 each subsequent year after that
would be about 335,000 a year mostly
because of the health benefits the
pension expense and some of the salary
as well
and what other options did you explore
besides the part-time firefighters well
this is all in comparison to rehiring
the seven firefighters again right but I
mean within within that context of
having the retirements that were there
any other options that were explored not
that would um yield this type of savings
right now though what should be noted we
started our negotiations with fire
unions and from talking to director
Howard through his conversations with
some of the Union Representatives he's
in belief or at least told me that they
are planning to come to the table with
you know some ideas that might address
some of these issues
well if in fact
um that's the
case then wouldn't this be premature to
implement not knowing what the potential
savings could be um with the
negotiations that are underway no
because it has to start somewhere and
one of the um items that the the union
representative wanted was information
from us they'd want to see what these
numbers look like and of course they'd
be getting copies of this you know after
this council meeting what the salary
ordinance allows us to do is to move in
that direction this is a process it's
going to take us time we have the first
reading of the salary and it's the
second and there's 20 days after that um
we posted the ads but still getting in
the ads getting in the resumés from
Those ads then leads to us um having the
interview process was take some time by
I believe mid or the end of February
we're going to be down seven
firefighters so yes we are going to have
to set up things where we can move and
fill these positions and I would like to
continue to have the op or have the
option having a part-time as one of
those options not saying that we're
doing that at this point but we're going
to have to make decisions rather
quickly I
um I I understand the analysis and um
but I don't think that we have looked at
all the options that are possible and my
concern about putting this in the salary
ordinance is this is how we arrived at
having a public safety director I was
told that we were putting our toe in the
water we're going to see what's out
there and the next thing you know we no
offense Mr Howard Mr Howard is here um
well actually the director of Public
Safety had been in the salary ords for
many years and I understand that but we
also had Chiefs mhm um but it had not
been had not been filled in several
years either but I I have serious
concerns about making a decision tonight
about adding something that is
fundamentally going to change the way
that Public Safety is delivered in
Brigantine
um I have a real problem with doing that
you know on a um analysis that we just
received but also that once it's there
um I have to believe that it's going to
be utilized and you know once it's
utilized um we won't know we have a
problem until we have a problem and that
concerns me greatly I think there are a
lot of other options that could be
looked at and um I think what we need to
do is is pretty simple
um I think we really need to take some
time and uh you know work with uh the
fire department work with the police
department work with the beach Patrol to
see if there are cost savings if there
are
efficiencies and um you know I think
that's a process that we should do
together as a council I
disagree well of course well let me let
me ask you this Frank if we if we were
to what you're saying is we won't know
that we have a problem until we have a
problem well we have a problem it's
called
taxes and
I'll go into what Mr
weiner uh said that I said but I'll
repeat it I'll repeat what I
said what I said
was that the very fact that we have not
appointed a permanent public safety
director should be an indication that
many of us up here would like to see
Chiefs
back on the other hand
I said we wanted to have a
partner we wanted to have a partner that
understood that what the majority of
council and the city manager need to do
to establish tax stability and fiscal
stability in this
town he has to understand that he or she
has to understand that and be able to
implement it and work smoothly with the
city manager to get it
accomplished no
one that I know of in those departments
has come forward what I said was no one
in those departments has come forward
and shown
me that he understood that that
was the
managerial abilities that were
required no one showed me those manage
that he could work to
implement the the requirements that are
necessary to establish fiscal
responsibility so we have a problem
there it's called taxes now in the
audience just for the people at home in
the audience we have about a 100 people
I would dare to say that at least 80 of
them are Municipal Employees either here
or somewhere else or relatives of
Municipal Employees here or somewhere
else so I speak for not just the
Municipal Employees who I think do an
outstanding
job but I also speak for the taxpayers
and so we do have a problem and it's
called fiscal responsibility and
spending taxpayer dollars and how to
save on those
dollars the new
Chiefs have to understand that that's
what's required of the job and that
things have to change the people want
them to change they insist that they
change if the fire department and the
police department are meeting with the
city manager and have other
ideas to save these kinds of monies then
that's great I'm all for it but we need
to have the option the city manager
needs to have the option of having
temporary employee pardon me part-time
employees firefighters EMTs
so that she
can if need be fill those positions if
need
be mayor can I make a comment on I just
want to mention Frank Frank with all due
respect I think that's a little
different than what you said before well
I think and I think the other part of
this too is with this form of
government um the city manager is
supposed to run the day-to-day
operations
city manager is supposed to make a
recommendation um based on the resources
that are provided by by city government
and I've heard the manager say many
times that she's in favor of
chiefs I I've heard that but at the same
time we don't have a mechanism as a
policy setting body we really don't have
a mechanism to meet with the fire
department um leadership or the police
department leaders ERS ship on our own
we would have to do that as a body and
executive session and and if in fact
that's the
case you know may maybe that's something
we ought to do maybe we ought to bring
in the leadership of the the fire
department as a body so we all hear the
same
thing and um we should hear their
recommendations um and uh what
cost-saving ideas they have maybe it
deals with Staffing maybe it deals with
other other issues
and and when you look at these numbers
just to put it in
perspective we're talking about the
potential savings and with the new
ratables would be somewhere
around the first year would be a little
over a penny I would think but the new R
will be right around the penny in
subsequent years at 335,000
we last year you had an opportunity to
lower taxes by that amount and and there
was an attitude that we didn't need to
do that but now we're going to gut
Public Safety to save a penny
perspectively that we don't even know
that is is what it's going to do and
there's a lot that's not in this
calculation but I I think we need to I
challenge the rest of council do you
want to sit with the police department
the fire department leadership the beach
Patrol leadership and find out what
exactly are they proposing what can be
done I I don't think any of us have a
problem personally I don't sitting down
with people together so that we all heal
the same thing at the same time but I
think that if we don't move on this then
these figures just remain
theoretical and a proposal and the
unions don't have anything solid to come
up against and argue against and
propose it all just turns
theoretical if if we act on this then
there's something
concrete that they have to work against
and to give out their ideas
otherwise nobody can be on Solid Ground
well Joe we have a responsibility to
negotiate in good faith and you know I
think the law is very clear on that we
need to find out exactly do you know
what's been proposed by the police
department no I haven't heard I no one's
come to me we don't know do we know what
the fire department is proposing that's
not true earlier in us earlier in the
year I did present to Mayor and councel
the status of negotiations not much has
changed now recently they submitted a
very good proposal to us about a month
ago I believe um just a day or two ago
they received our counter proposal on
that so I believe after we meet next
which is with the um I believe it's the
23rd or the 24th that I meet with the
PBA after that point I'll have an update
I would rather sit face to face if I if
we're going to take on that
responsibility of judging whether
someone has managerial skills judging
whether they have the ability to run a
department I like to sit there with them
face to face because right now you're
making those decisions no no no we're
not not hold on you are going way a
field Phil number one we as a body
cannot and do not negotiate contracts
that's the manager's jobs she's been
doing it and as everybody up here knows
the manager has kept us fully advised of
how those contract negotiations I don't
know whether I was in the same meeting
as you were but I don't feel it when I
hear you I wonder what meetings you've
been in I'll tell you let me let me take
it back a little bit 2012 in the budget
I said then repeatedly and I said it
throughout 2012 we have budgetary
problems please city employees and I
said specifically in the council in 2012
and again in 2013 made it their top
priority not to have layoffs not to
affect anybody's position despite all
the rhetoric and the anonymous postings
and the other things that we can read on
various places in uh the internet posted
by I'm not sure whom but sometimes
attributable to the Departments the
reality is we did that nobody's terms of
employment have been changed nobody's
getting paid less their contracts were
up and there's negotiations for the
first time ever legitimate and maybe a
little hard edged negotiations that's
normal in the entire world where
management deals with organized Labor
organized labor should understand that
management should understand that that's
going to result in some structure of
payment for the unions going forward now
what I said in 2012 is we have Financial
issues now we're two years later and I
have gotten nothing from anyone with
ideas on how to do that so Phil Phil you
can't come up in they come through the
city manager they would and the city
manager hasn't gotten it so you can't
sit here in directly from them I'm sure
you would Phil but we have a council
manager form of government the manager
has been negotiating the manager has
been dealing day to day week to week
with all the city's employees I have
asked as a policy maker and not as a
negotiator in any other role if people
have ideas on how to save money we need
to hear them if there are efficiencies
and the answer was no answer now I don't
know why that is and I'm not going to
speculate why that is but the reality
didn't change it didn't get better we
had a tough financial situation in 2012
it worsened in 2013
2014 the reality is and I I don't know
and I'm not going to characterize how
the unions are approaching negotiations
if I was representing the union I'd say
say ask for more that's normal that's
perfectly fine and where you end up I
don't know but it's certainly not going
to be dramatically less than where we
were before we can look at the numbers
we've led the budgets 2012 2013 and
we're going to have 2014 it cost a
certain amount of money to run the
Departments now let me address one other
thing value is not
subjective every occasionally people
come up and say whatever it takes to
compensate the police and fire I'm in
favor of it and you know what
subjectively I am too because I've used
the fire department Services they've
come to my house when we had a problem I
needed the EMT service one time
personally tremendous service when have
you ever the answer is never heard me or
other Democratic members of council say
that the members of the police and fire
and the beach Patrol were anything other
than top quality professionals haven't
said it and I'm not going to say it
because I don't believe it now with that
said we got to pay you how do we do that
one answer would be staff of the
department at whatever level the
departments say they should be staffed
and pay them in accordance with the
contract staff with full-time people and
pay them well we can all do the math and
I know internally the unions have done
the math you know what that would cost
we don't have that we don't have it for
a lot of reasons and the Departments
don't operate in a vacuum financially
it's not as if you know we could take
care of one department and you know
pretend that the money is going to come
from somewhere magically even when we
have big holes elsewhere
it's one pile or pot of money and
there's a lot of Demands on it and some
of the demands that are new since 2012
are and Phil doesn't like this one but
it's a reality we are paying now because
past administrations didn't put away a
single Cent to pay the retirement
benefits that are due to retiring
members of the department that's a four
or $500,000 item now it's spread out
over a couple years because we're able
to bond it it doesn't change the fact
that is money that should have been
gathered in past years through taxation
or other means and should have been
available to pay the people so that
we're not looking in one given year 2014
at a situation where we have a huge
payment like that we have tax appeals
which maybe they're done and maybe
they're not with the reval we don't know
we hope but tax appeals absolutely blew
huge holes in at least our last two
budgets in the years since the reval the
first reval in
2006 did those administrations put away
anything against the possibility that we
might have these reductions no they
didn't taxes went up in most of those
years went somewhere it didn't go there
we have obligations now we have
long-term obligations for Capital
expenditures these are all real that's
now that saying that doesn't mean that
there's the slightest bit of hostility
to the Departments but I'm not I'm not
going to look at the numbers and say I
can make these work when I can't the
mayor says we I think we have options to
explore well you know we're too two
years into it since I've been here
saying the same things I haven't heard
option number one are there other
options besides hiring full-time people
and paying whatever costs or looking at
some other alternative whether it be
some part-timers whether it be a mix of
part-timers plus some new people uh in
and we're talking about the fire
department with the case of part-timers
but the same thing would apply to the
police department and with the uh class
twos well Rick Rick fortunately
verbosity does not wear me down um what
what I I think we have control over is
the structure of those departments we
have control over how many people are in
those departments you have control over
through negotiations what salaries are
going forward these are the kind of
things we ought to be looking at you
know what we're doing though is you're
you're going down a path that really is
probably the easiest thing to do but it
could have the most negative impact on
the oper ation of departments you know
the the the individuals who are making
those comments are the ones who are in
the job you know it's not like uh
they're telling us everything's fine
we'll make it work we have our contracts
we have our salaries be honest with you
I think the employees who come up here
and speaker are are are pretty um pretty
gutsy about doing it because you know
overall they have a career to finish but
they're telling you the truth what they
think is the best for their Department
each and every one of them they're not
going anywhere
but they're worried about the department
going forward it's not about them it's
about the department not telling you
said I want somebody behind me knows
what they're doing yeah hold on Phil
once again though you're you're spinning
it into an area which I didn't address
and wasn't going to address because I
don't feel that way which is that the
people who come up here from the
Departments and speak are in it for
themselves I said nothing of the kind
the reality is we have excellent
departments if we could staff them at
whatever level people wanted and afford
to do that we wouldn't have any
discussions I know what money we have
and what money we don't have I can do
the math and see that this year and
again I'm going to assume that when the
contracts are finalized there's not
going to be any dramatic shift because
there never is and it's not as if the
the amount of compensation that people
are entitled to is going to drop
dramatically I can do that math I can
see where we are I can see that if we
hire X number of new hires that within a
certain period of time through the step
process and with the the health benefits
and the pension to which they're
entitled it is going to cost a certain
amount of money so this process that you
love to characterize or mischaracterize
is somehow being so mysterious or so
conspiratorial has been nothing of the
kind I've been talking about it for two
years there's been no secret because
there have been discussions with the
members of the department that one of
the things that the manager has been
looking at and considering is this
possibility of part-timers and for the
last time the S ordinance doesn't commit
to anything and I'm not really worried
that we'll come in someday and find out
that on the slide when we weren't
looking Jennifer filled positions with
part- timr if Council has not already
authorized that as a policy decision
that we're want to follow it's pretty
clear we're going to do it because we've
already advertised for the positions
we're accepting applications and we're
going to interview yeah how could how
could the manager report to us that it
might be a viable option if she didn't
know a are there even people out there
who are potentially qualified fill these
positions what kind of money would they
require and then input from the
Department which has been invited and is
still invited begged for tell us and I
heard some of the comments tonight and
you know I take them under consideration
some of them were purely emotional some
of them really don't impress me I'll
tell you when when you talk about some
mystical factor of being from Brigantine
I think that's a slur on the
professionalism of everybody who who
works in your professions a person who
is in my view a person who is a trained
and certified firefighter or EMT is
doing that because that is something
they love and it's a profession that
they want to give their best effort to
and unless I see differently an
individual I'm not going to assume that
because they happen have a different zip
code where they live that somehow they
wouldn't be as committed to their job
and to protecting the safety of the
people so for me that's not going to
persuade me please take that off the
table I do have a couple questions
proposal uh not the proposal but the um
the analysis that was sent I have a
couple questions for Jennifer
um and I want to try to clear a
misconception that uh uh I may have had
or the public may have uh in the
analysis here it refers to replacing
seven um retired firefighters with nine
part-time
firefighters and it appears here that
the part-time firefighters would work an
average of 30 or under 30 hours per week
per week yes okay so it's not at as has
been characterized that that individual
would come and maybe work once a month
so we're talking about no part-time
firefighters that would have a schedule
that would work less than a full-time
position so that we would not have to
pay
benefits that that's correct and right
now our firefighters who are on the
24-hour shifts average about 7 Days
24-hour days per month whereas the
part-time we'd be a little bit more
flexible with the scheduling I they
wouldn't have to necessarily be there 24
hours we could work with different
scheduling ideas where they would
actually be more available for the
training and so forth because they would
be more there during the day okay well I
wanted to make that distinction because
I know we've had some fire officials
come up stating that you know they they
would would be difficult to work with
and of course you know I I want to agree
with councilman dely that a professional
firefighter EMT is just that and um the
individuals that would be hired if we
went with part-timers um as per the
advertisement that I saw would have a
minimum of three years uh experience on
the job yes and okay
so getting back to now I'd like to make
a couple comments mayor about doing some
due diligence which I personally have
done since the Inception of looking into
uh public safety
director
um we went into that process because of
a a situation that occurred where three
Chiefs had retired uh we stated back
then that we were exploring that that
that possibility um I want to tell you
that many members of council did just
that they did their due diligence um I
want to let you know that U asking the
permission of U Jennifer
Blumenthal uh I met with a former uh now
deceased Chief Hall on um April the 9th
of 13 and I had a discussion with with
Chief hall because I truly believe that
Chief Hall possessed the qualities that
councilman ker referred to he was a
leader he ran the
department but but he was but he
understood that he held a position of
management and and needed to um bring
the department in a certain way he was
also told based on what happened at
Council
uh with tight budgets that changes were
going to be made not through layoffs but
through attrition when I met with
Captain with Chief
Hall he indicated that he was
already trying to come up with a new
system with um with the amount of people
that would be left once the retire
retirees actually retired and so he was
being proactive he was being a leader he
ran the department I think everyone here
and everyone in the audience and
everyone um you know appreciated and
respected Jim hall for what he was so I
I think the comment that Frank made I
understand the comment he was making and
and we all need the public to know that
Jennifer bloomingfall:
back in June there were comments being
made posts being made that the island
isn't safe she opted at that point to
hire a public safety
director now Phil I see that you're
smirking up but you know this is in fact
what happened this is theater okay okay
so anyway if I if I just could continue
if you know because I want the public to
understand what the potential
part-timers you know what where they
would be working how much they would be
working because I read this okay and you
you know I I was now understanding that
it wasn't what had been um purported to
be that you know these part-timers would
work one one day a month um so and and
the reality is as councilman uh delri
stated if you listen to Chris Christie
the other day um it it's all over his
speech about what we have to do to
reduce soaring cost if you listened um I
believe it was either yesterday or today
on the Don Williams Show uh County
Executive Denny levenson stating that we
need to consolidate that we need to cut
cost what we are trying to do we we're
not the enemy although that's the way
we're perceived we were elected to make
efficiencies cut cost we've done it
through attrition we haven't laid
anybody off and this is what we're
attempting to do this is what we're
trying to do we would hope that the
Departments would buy in okay you know
have some serious dialogue okay and
let's all move the city in the same
direction let's not be pulling in
opposite directions and you know um this
is this is what I've been doing and so I
had this I I had this question that I
wanted to ask regarding uh the part-time
firefighters because it's totally
opposite and different of what was
purported by you know members of of the
fire department um and that's my
comment I'd like to make a couple
comments
uh as everybody knows or most of the
people know I run a couple businesses um
I just got done my year end on my liquor
store and I'm in control of the payroll
of that store um so I again everybody
wants to save money you know um me and
my partner sat there and we talked about
it and what we can we do we have wine
experts we have beer experts we have
managers we have this but that's what
makes us good these professionals that I
hire makes us what we are today so when
when we're talking about putting a
part-time
firefighter when I think right now you
guys are possibly down two guys if you
if you move up a chief and have seven
man
shifts um look at the problem coming
through the door take care of the
instead of
$445,000 when you get hired make it
$30,000 negotiate this make it 30,000
and have these 16 18 22 steps and and
you look at when somebody gets hired
they look at it and they say in in seven
years I'll be making 50 Grand well if
you don't want the job don't take it but
you knew what you were getting into in
the beginning these guys over here
they're not going to lose their job
they're not going to lose their their
Sal Sal and stuff like that but they're
professionals so you're beating on these
people we got to take care of the
problem coming through the door because
these guys are going out the door my
solution would be is renegotiate get
down to $30,000 employees hire two of
those there's a fire inspection in here
for 80 grand eliminate that and no
offense stand eliminate your position
there's
$180,000 right there so
plus plus the the the seven firefighters
that we just just retired that's about a
million dollars in savings right there
so you got a lot of savings here we're
all doing our job you know we all want
to save money but not at a cost of
somebody's life so it has to have some
kind of Standards if seven is the
minimum we'll leave it at 7 renegotiate
from the person coming through the door
tomorrow not the guys leaving two weeks
from now thank
[Applause]
you and Andy is your suggestion that the
manager in the next negotiating session
with the firefighters should go in and
say we want to change the entire
structure of the steps and we want to
have a starting salary significantly
lower than it is now yes all right have
you talked to the union about that um no
I'm not allowed to okay well well I mean
they may they may have some say in there
that's why I think me and the mayor are
asking have the union Representatives
come into executive meeting don't need
to you have the manager Andy if as a
body
$30,000 it could be 32,000 it could be
27,000 I'm just great I'm not I'm
holding you to a number but if if you're
saying that you would like Council to
consider directing as a matter of policy
that the manager in whatever stage of
the negotiations she is in with the fire
department suggest these changes to them
STS out then you know make that
motion I just did well and and I I agree
with councilman Simpson's analysis um
you know he he's obviously very good
with the numbers um based on his
business sense and and how successful
he's
been but I I also believe that these are
the kind of discussions that we could
have together in executive session with
the leadership of those departments
sitting in front of us and it's not just
negotiating a contract we talking about
restructuring you know the code the city
code says how many police officers how
many um Superior officers are in each
department we need to take a look at
that and that's the kind of analysis we
need to do this this
is as far as I'm concerned it's an
option but it's the easiest option it's
not the
most um thoughtful and it's Pro and we
know it's operationally it's not the
best for the city of Brigantine it's a
Band-Aid but if we don't act on it it
doesn't become an option but Joe there
we we sat there and negotiated with
talking about a public safety director
and then three hours before we have a
meeting we're going to act on on a
motion to hire part-time help
this is just our analysis no we're not
we're not saying we're we're going to
hire them we're going to say it's a
possibility it's a real possibility
unless we act on it wait a minute unless
we act on it it doesn't become a real
possibility it's just something that's
in The Ether out there and the union
cannot come back to us with any
concrete proposal because nothing is
concrete if we don't act on it Dan how
many people have you H how many
applications do you have for the
part-time firefighter the the
advertisement out The League
municipalities on January 7th that's
when it was posted and I've had to date
10 10 so it's last week give or take how
many fire part-time firefighters are you
proposing the original contention was
between 10 and 15 a c of 10 and 15 to
have a pool so again if you have a plan
gentleman knows he going to be on
vacation the second week of July and you
know that two months in a hand you can
stay up ahead of time I know the number
that the manager was putting out was
nine because that's what keeps it at the
current level
but the number that was originally
proposed I met the captains for probably
four hours or so in December about it
they asked me a number and I said my
thought was 10 to 15 to give us a good
pull of of people to pull from so you
have
them well I think you
know
clearly the issue is
interrelated the absence of leadership
in the
Departments is causing us to try and
make decisions based on on information
we don't know how it's going to work in
the long run you had a police chief you
had a fire chief I think you would have
a much different recommendation coming
forward someone who had to uh work in
that department and um you know I said
it before people talking to us tonight
aren't the ones who are in danger of
losing their jobs their jobs are secure
they're worried about who they're
working with going forward
um I I think we owe it to the community
and I think we owe it to the
professionals that we have in the uh
fire department that we do a more
thorough analysis and I'm still in favor
of us sitting down as a body and uh
looking at the uh start with the fire
department let's bring in the leadership
from the fire department let's bring in
the superior officers as well as the um
the rank and file and and let's hear
what they are proposing to do to reach
some efficiencies within that department
and how they can operate structurally to
to make that work and not all of that is
negotiations a lot of it is what this
body is going to have to do with uh how
you move forward with policy I I would
like to hear firsthand from the people
who were in those positions and and why
exactly could that not have happened at
any point in at least the last two years
why could it not happen right now
through the manager that there's if you
want to have what you're proposing is to
have the entire Council meet with
Representatives or leadership well
that's what's happening right now the
representatives are here speaking we're
hearing them you can't exclude the
public from that so what is it you're
trying to accomplish other than
pretending that we haven't gone through
the last two years everyone knowing the
financial situation and constraints we
have everyone knowing that we were
reaching out and begging for people to
give us information that had some value
in terms of how things could be or
couldn't be restructured and having
Chiefs or not having Chiefs doesn't
disenable and hasn't dis enabled the
senior officers in the fire department
from expressing their opinions from
giving us their information and they
have you know to a man no it has not to
a man they have 10 15 20 years in the
department can't negotiate in public not
negotiating the whole point just came up
with a solution you know that he he
threw out there that you know could you
start a salary at this could you uh
right and how long have the negotiations
been going well let me rephrase that how
long have we as a body known that the
firefighters contract was up at the end
of 2013 answer the whole time we were up
here in 2013 At what point did you or
councilman Simpson ever suggest that
they you wanted the city manager to go
into the negotiations and to propose a
dramatically lower starting salary and
changes the step system and whatever
else Andy's proposing now answer never
because Rick I can't go talk to these
people the heads of the union or
anything like this under this body under
this former government and how how Andy
would that have prevented you from going
to the manager if you believe that that
was a viable alternative was gathering
facts and numbers I didn't know how much
a starting fireman cost uh paid and
everything I had to go get all that
information Andy it's in the
firefighters contract which the manager
gave us at the beginning of last year
it's not a mystery you can cross-examine
everybody up here all right but let's
make let's go forward let's make a
decision as to where we're going you
know you once again we're going to say
let's look at what's out there and the
next thing you know know you're going to
have a bunch of people hopefully they're
going to be New Jersey residents um at
the firehouse who who nobody knows and
um quite frankly uh it seems like
anybody from the island um who who has
uh some ties here for whatever reason
that's a problem now uh they can't be a
chief they can't um they can't move
forward in their departments so I I
think we we have uh a responsibility to
do a better job in the analysis and
that's how I feel whatever you decide to
do obviously you had the votes to do it
but remember there are ramifications to
whatever you vote on Council Simson just
so I could follow up U several months
ago that you're what you're describing
is a two-tier contract basically what
the has the ones that are here now and
the ones that are coming in the door
it's referred to the affectional is a
Have and Have Not contract um that was
actually suggested several months ago to
the unions I suggested I asked that
question said was something they'd be
willing to to explore I was told no
granted the contract was closed and
wasn't open so now as it's point out
negotiations are taking place right that
was asked several times by myself um to
the captains and to the unions and to
the membership as I talk to them and
that was something they said they were
not interested at that time so it was
explored among SE several suggestions of
the course of the last several months so
that's I just wanted to make sure that
everybody was clear about that one well
if I had him in a room I can I could
talk to him if I had him in a room I
could talk to him
just want know it was pointed
out am I to conclude from that Andy that
outside this chamber you really don't
have conversations with the members of
the fire police departments about their
work conditions or
negotiations uh well last time last
meeting he said I called Dan Howard on a
daily basis I didn't bring that up Rick
you're bringing up
nonsense I don't even know what you just
said there andy about Dan Howard on a
daily basis but you you said you you
have conversations on a daily basis with
Dan Howard
I said that I have conversations with
Dan and you did okay that's totally
wrong no yeah you're never you're never
wrong all right once again let's can we
move forward with uh whatever decision
is going to happen here we need to uh we
have a salary ordinance uh which is
ordinance number thir 17 of 2013 we have
a public hearing and adoption um at this
time we need a motion a second
so move second okay I'm going to open
the uh meeting for public comment on the
salary ordinance um salary ordinance
only at this time Mr
Papa could you Frank Papa Frank can't
hear you if you there you go Frank Papa
105 Roosevelt Boulevard North
what does the average fireman make Frank
we you have to what does the average
fire make firemen make taking the whole
fire department together is it not an
average of $40 per
hour I don't know what the average I
believe from my records that I collected
with all the pays and everything else it
averages out to $40 an hour now I'm not
I'm I don't know about the uh
firefighters
part-time firefighters or anything else
I'm talking about the
EMTs from the records that I
acquired when two two amts go
out two out two in is that
correct I think they were 2 amm when
they're talking about a fire when
they're talking the union the union fire
a guy from fire from the fire
department's here he made a statement
that's on a fire on a
fire talking about the EMTs right he
made a statement there were $155 $117 an
hour the going rate for an EMT in
Atlanta county is between 15 and
18 and they work for uh the
hospitals they work all over the county
our firefighters when they go out on an
EMT call two men that's $80 out two men
have to come in
what's the two out two in Frank you're
confusing the fire protocol with the EMT
response who comes in with the two
firefighters go out no one nobody comes
in so it's $80 an hour right we could
have two Mt
EMTs for 36 an hour well Frank we send
the $18 an hour guys to your house they
wear my
house the EMTs the EMTs were $18 an hour
at my house when when Mainland when they
sent them from Mainland that RTS
couldn't do the the oxygen test I had to
pay extra for the other EMTs Frank
they're paramedics I don't know
paramedics okay they came and did
it we got a cost saving there that we
could save if you use a part-timer send
one one part-time out with with a
fireman the excuse that he don't know
the streets is is Ric ridiculous we just
hired eight
policemen all eight of them live out of
town why couldn't get qualified
policemen in town Jen did you hire eight
policemen there's eight policemen the
late the late hires the last eight hires
the I I don't know what the average of
the last eight hirer you check them you
find out they're Out of
Towners they know the
streets so that's that's a feeble excuse
to use that they don't know it they're
going to perform the same duties and the
same job as our
EMTs because they live out of town
they're not
qualified that's that's a false
assumption thank
you yes uh I'm sorry Mrs
Phillips SC it
an excuse me nhh Phillips 308 27th
Street it's been a long time since we've
had an analysis of the salv units and
such a review is essential and I think
what has been taking place here is good
in terms of looking at it very carefully
and not just perun passing it at the
beginning of each
year we all agree we're in a down
economy governments must become more
cost effective and that means being able
to adapt and
change having a salary un such as this
one that provides flexibility to
management regarding positions and
salaries make sense employe costs here
in Brigantine are 2third of our budget
governments can no longer simply raise
taxes when the revenue does not equal
the proposed
expenditures the status quo is simply
not sustainable taxpayers are not going
to put up with constant tax
increases the money isn't there I think
you're acknowledging that at least Up in
Council and I think everybody in this
room needs to recognize acknowledge the
fact that we have a financial crisis and
we have a shortage of Revenue and we
cannot just go to the taxpayers again to
correct that and we recognize that
everybody here that goes for all the
public sector unions residents and we
work with it and work together I haven't
seen at least I'm not aware that a great
deal that is taking place but um keep in
mind the stateus quo is not sustainable
thank you thank you Mrs
Hulk yes
John John pooie 100 Sharon
Square I've heard council members
ask for ideas on how to save
money I've asked I've heard council
members say taxes ref fiscal
responsibility and I I've seen actions
taken to
eliminate Police and Fire Chiefs to save
money eliminate positions
well if you're serious on that
philosophy I have an idea for
you we don't need seven people up there
making decisions for the city of
Brigantine your average salary is 9 to
10,000 if this Council went to five
members instead of seven members in to
Purity this city would be saving $20,000
a year now there's an idea for you and I
would ask the uh for the solicitor's
opinion if under city council form of
government if there can be five members
instead of
seven or what other forms of government
you can have five elected officials
there is one it's called the committee
form of government and there's other
bedroom communities in this County next
to Brigantine that have higher budgets
or more square yards more square miles
and higher populations and they do quite
well with just five elected officials
instead of seven so as
you navigate through your decisionmaking
process I think you should look in the
mirror and say well if I need to do it
over here for the the taxpayers good
maybe I need to do it here and maybe
Brigantine could be just as well off
with five elected officials instead of
seven to save taxes that's what this is
all
about does anybody need a smoke break
here tonight let let let's have a smoke
break okay let's have a smoke Blake
because I I think it's unprofessional
and bad conduct that
somebody a city employee or elected
official FR of this in front of this
John on go take a smoke break while
supposed to be run into City
meeting John we're on the salary
ordinance if you would the the city
manager walks out of this meeting as
it's being conducted and goes outside
and takes a smoke Breakn that's not what
she's getting paid for please we're on
the salary ordinance right now we'll
have another public portion at the end
of this where you can express your
opinions on
anything thank you thank
you
John hello my name is John livsey I'm at
203 9th Street North resident here in
and I just want to address this uh
part-time salary issue to bring in
part-timers this as a cost-saving
measure is the wrong thing to do I spent
26 years in the Coast Guard Reserves as
a
part-timer I retired and got out because
as the duties expanded and the area of
operation expanded I didn't feel as a
part-timer I could adequately trained to
know my area of operation and I felt
that either my life or my crew members
life lives where the people I was
responsible to save lives could be in
danger by that attitude now I was not a
part-timer as a cost saving measure as a
reservice we're used for other things we
could be brought in to help out in other
responsibilities as oil spills wartime
and other uh factors but the point I'm
trying to make is to bring in
part-timers in police and fire Beach
Patrol as a cost saving measure
in my opinion is the wrong thing to do
because the M big thing that people have
yes we're all train the same I had to do
the same requirements that my regular
Partners had to do I had to drive the
boat the same I had to know where all
the equipment was but the major factor
that I didn't have enough time underway
was was the area familiarization of the
community that I was operating in and I
think that's a major factor when you're
talking about seconds to save someone's
life and if it's your grandson or your
daughter or your son that needs to be
saved I think you want those people to
know exactly where they have to go and
not take that extra second or two to
check a GPS out to find out where a
building is so as a cost-saving measure
going part time is not the answer thank
you thank you
[Applause]
John aie
Alie ponin 20311 Street North uh my son
Sven as you might know is a firefighter
in Atlantic City he has excellent
benefits and a pension plan I was just
wondering a question here if you have
part-timers with no health benefits and
they get hurt on the job injured God
forbid are they not covered by health
insurance answer please answer that if
they they're on duty it would be workers
comp if off duty they would be required
to have their own health benefits so it
would be on the job injury or illness
right on the job it would go through our
jef which is a workers comp program okay
uh second question say there are seven
firefighters that are union members
right now and eventually in years to
come uh they want to retire will they be
replaced by part- timr which will make
us into a Volunteer Fire
Company you want me to answer that if
you know the answer well I I can answer
to some degree I don't believe um
speaking from the past with Chief hall
or with director Howard that um and
other people that we really can go to a
full volunteer or part-time group you
know right now I'm looking maybe at one
platoon that we might be able to
supplement from full-time firefighters
to part-time but I think it's something
that we'd have to work into slowly to
see where it would go I don't believe at
any point that we'd be fully volunteer
in fact what would end up happening in
my vision is that if we could bring on
part-time people they would be able to
move into the full-time positions if you
know they they came in the Mount of
hours that they were required to come in
went through all the training as
necessary and and things of that nature
okay another question I've heard from
the community this is called union
busting uh maybe somebody could clarify
that that
terminology yeah I can clarify what
union busting typically means union
busting is known as an effort by
management to generally try and remove
or desertify a union in a workplace none
of that's happening here Auggie in every
scenario that we've thought about if you
bring in part-timers they are a minority
and as the manager just said ideally
they would work out and you'd move them
into the full-time positions as they
happen the union is in a real sense
irrelevant to the whole discussion the
union is the union is going to continue
and their members are going to continue
to negotiate and get whatever they
negotiate
for that's
it okay thank
you thank you
Norm Norm Wier 600 speech I just want a
couple questions Mr PLO said that these
part- timers will work 30 hours a week
is that it Norm I was I was
um I was referring to the analysis that
was given to us today by the city
manager okay how many hours a week are
these people supposed to work um the
analysis based on 30 hours that's not
written at Stone at this moment because
we're looking at various different
scheduling options but it would have to
be 30 or less so they after that point
30 and above they're required to have
health benefits okay now that's my
question too if they out on a fire call
God
forbid and their 30 hours are up did
they go
home no it's based on um not a weekly
average it's based on 30 hours per week
on a yearly average so that it can be
something that's made up it does it's
not you don't go by a week no it's not a
week it's based on 30 hours per week but
when it's analyzed and audited it's on
the yearly basis so you know we can work
if they're over their 30 hours during a
week they do they get overtime or pay
time or is it still straight time and
they're not eligible for benefits no
they wouldn't be eligible for health
benefits or um a pension expense now now
so things such as overtime and
everything that needs to be looked
at okay my next question is Mr Howard I
think uh is a retired police officer
correct I don't know who I talk to but
it's a retired police officer he's
getting a pension from the state correct
Mr Howard would have to answer that
correct yes all right he's getting
hospitalization from the state no sir
well part of it yes sir I pay for the
rest of it well we're not or the city is
the city paying for his hospitalization
or any of his benefits When the contract
was made we we don't have a contract
with director Howard but no he gets no
health benefits or pension he don't get
no benefits at all no he gets the
straight salary he doesn't live here in
the city I resume he lives out of town
does he get gas a mileage for his car he
gets no gas mileage he doesn't um you
know receive any stien for mileage he
doesn't have a city car nothing okay
this is pass you'll get between 70 and
$100,000 roughly if this is pass you
already get a pension wouldn't it be
nice if he donated 50,000 back to the
city he's already getting a pension
probably of
60,000 I think with the the amount of
work that director Howard does he's
worth every bit of that 70,000 well
thank
you okay uh folks we're on the salary
ordinance anyone has additional comments
on the salary ordinance Rose yes
okay if you would state your name and
address to the record e weiner 600 East
Beach Avenue Brigantine I have a
question for Jennifer I guess it's for
um the the part-time firemen they're
going to be required to have gone
through firemen training and EMT
certification before they become a
part-time person in Brigantine Yes
actually that's part of the savings
because in our current hiring list for
full-time firefighters they're not
required to go through the academy which
is a cost to the taxpayers how however
for the part-time we're requiring them
to have Academy experience behind them
at least 3 years of experience and an
EMT certification well at 30 hours a
week if they get 52 weeks a year they're
going to make $23,400 right before taxes
right they couldn't live in
Brigantine yeah they'd have to have
section 8 housing to be able to afford
to live in brigant Te I can't imagine
people causing a traffic jam on the
bridge coming over with
applications for a job that's not going
to support them we're having a lot of
interest we have about 10 applications
in already yeah and some of the
applications are from people with a lot
of different a lot of experience 13 10
years experience in various fire
departments okay now are these
volunteers or are they paid they're in
paid departments uh I hav I don't know
as everybody knows the majority of state
of Jersey is is um provided fire service
by volunteers um and do it very well as
everybody knows the all the applicants
I've gotten are all from volunteer
active volunteer members at least again
on paper they haven't been spoken to I
think one member was 13 years of service
I believe I think he was a two or three
of officers in their volunteer
companies couple of them are volunteer
officer or officers in volunteer
companies um sever again on paper alone
they present
something they present some interesting
experience levels again right that's on
paper alone but again that League of
municipalities website has only been
active since June or January 7th and
it's only the 15th now
so very good thank you
Rose rose Roberts 903 Saron Road um I
Andy mentioned um $80,000 for a fire
inspector could you explain that
position is that the same thing that's
in the salary ordinance as Fire official
yes okay is that someone within the fire
department no
far as I understand is going to be sili
well no right now it's on Bill Baldwin
and he what happens is when we have the
Fire official in the Union contract if
they move over to from the fire
department to become the Fire official
they get a 12% increase in their rates
now we do have the option to fill that
position with a
civilian um title instead of a sworn
officer title can that person go out on
a fire no so we're spending another
$80,000 for to replace a fireman that
could drop his pencil when he's doing
his inspections and go out on a fire
actually you have a good point because
in the past the Fire official never did
that yeah an out an ambulance in the
past um that was never done here the
Fire official just did the Fire official
work actually I would like to thank
director Howard for actually telling the
Fire official that he was to take runs
during so are we going to spend another
$80,000 so that means we have 105 and
another 80 wouldn't it just be easier to
hire some more firen well actually that
could actually
do that could I I mean to have a body in
the fire department that can actually
fight a fire or drive an ambulance or
save someone's life it should definitely
be considered but actually we had a DCA
representative down yesterday who felt
that we were spending too much in the
fire dep prevention department because
of the salary so it is something we're
looking at it's nothing that we have
decided at this point but it is
something that was do you take all the
recommendations from the DCA have you
taken all the recommendations so far
from the DCA I take any recommendation
that the DCA gives me as very
significant I can't say that I will
always take all the recommendations but
they do govern us so yes I well I think
the $80,000 would be better spent on
someone that could save someone's life
rather than push a pencil all day long
thank you thank
you Mrs uh
Kitty I neglect Kitty if you would state
your name and address for the record KY
Williams 419 West sh Drive bringing te
Jersy I came here initially way to
support the fire department because I
happen to love the fire department and I
don't think these people realize what
these firemen actually do I stood five
years ago on West Shore Drive